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#85286 - 11/24/03 08:11 PM qi credibility
Kevin Offline

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 122
I just thought I would point this out, I have noticed there are plenty who do not respect the energy arts. I can except this as I too was once skeptical. However, whether ch'i, ki or prana really exists or is just best taken symbolicly may never be known. I have heard there have never been any studies to show that qi does not exist that can prove conclusively, and I am not challenging anyone to find one for me. All I want to say is that if you distrust the energy arts, please keep these opinions to yourself, for those who do and don't believe have equally important beliefs provided they are not founded in ignorance. If you don't believe in the energy arts, why come and view these posts? Anyone who comes willingly to hear what they consider a load of bull has no right to call anyone else foolish for having faith in an abstract concept, and qi is, in my opinion, every bit as credible as god. So please if you want to discuss the credibility of qi, go ahead, nows your chance.
(if this post seems abit incoherent, I was distract frequently while writing this, so thats why)

#85287 - 11/25/03 06:12 AM Re: qi credibility
Fisherman Offline

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Im with you on this Kevin. Having spent alot of time studying the internals, (chi arts) I have come to understand how complicated that they can be. I have also seen how they work in application and they are extremely effective. Effective to the point where I have made a very conscious decision to no longer practice external arts and solely focus on IMA's. However, you won't see me trolling on other parts of the forum telling people that practice externals that their art is rudimentary and only good for fighting women and childen.
Kevin, what IMA do you study?

#85288 - 11/25/03 07:03 AM Re: qi credibility
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA

This is an open forum. As such people will discuss any topics put forward and their opinions may well vary. That's why it is called a forum.

If the only people who posted agreed on everything, it would make for a lot of back-slapping, but an amazingly boring forum.

I have disagreed/agreed with members posting on any number of sections of the forum based on my own experiences , knowledge and an inquisitive nature.

As such, I, and I hope others, will continue to post on any subject matter upon which they have an opinion.


#85289 - 11/25/03 07:49 AM Re: qi credibility

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fisherman:
............ However, you won't see me trolling on other parts of the forum telling people that practice externals that their art is rudimentary and only good for fighting women and childen.
Kevin, what IMA do you study?

Wow Fisherman, that is quite some statement! And, no offence, but a sweeping one too.

Are you refering to ALL the external arts or one in particular?

#85290 - 11/25/03 02:40 PM Re: qi credibility
Kevin Offline

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 122
JohnL, It appears I didn't present my point clearly; I apologize on the confusion then. What I meant to say is I don't want to hear people who are strongly convinced that the internal arts are a load of bull and come to the energy arts section and obstinately state that without any tact or support to their statements. I did not mean to say that I expect everyone to think like me. Fisherman, to train solely in the IMA's is impossible “Arguments about the reality of the concepts are often waged by novices and philosophical dilettantes, ignorant of the inseparable nature of duality. They see yin and yang as elements that can exist independently, while philosophical and physical reasoning demonstrate that they cannot. Without their union (=Tao), neither can exist. Ergo, a "hard" technique such as a straight fist is guided by the soft power of mind and the internal component of ch'i. Equally, the softest projection of Aikido requires the "hard" element of physical contact and movement, coupled with actively redirecting the opponent.” (Shaolin Gung Fu Institute). As for the style I study, it is not important. It is a mix of various styles and I have come to question the integrity of the school (McDojo). I have not learned any specific methods or concepts unique to any one style and therefore I see it not as a matter of what style I train in, but how I train. This is the best I can get at the time, but in the not too distant future I intend to learn gung fu.

#85291 - 11/25/03 03:23 PM Re: qi credibility
Kempoman Offline

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
[QUOTE]Fisherman, to train solely in the IMA's is impossible[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you don't understand what Fisherman is saying. I think that he is saying he trains in one of the three internal martial arts (Xingyiquan, taijiquan, baguazhang). The main differences between internal and external styles are body mechanics and method of power generation.

Shaolin Gung Fu - External Style, External Power Generation Methods

Xingyiquan - Internal Style, Internal Power Generation Methods

Internal does not equal yin or soft in this case. Getting struck by a 'beng quan/crushing fist' is not soft(or fun).


#85292 - 11/25/03 08:36 PM Re: qi credibility
Kevin Offline

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 122
Kempoman, I understand what you are saying, and I also understood what fisherman was saying. What I meant to say, is that the way he worded things, he made it sound like you only need one or the other, hard or soft. I understand that he probably trains in a predominantly soft style. Also, shaolin is not a style according to the shaolin gung fu institute (where I get most of my info, I will look into other sources when I finish reading all there is on that site). The shaolin styles are too diverse to generalize. Shaolin Tiger is generally hard and external, although it's white tiger sub family is a soft substyle. Shaolin Dragon styles are predominantly soft. I do however get your point, I just wanted to point that out. Hope I dont sound arrogant, proud or condescending.

#85293 - 11/25/03 09:31 PM Re: qi credibility
Fisherman Offline

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
This turned into something interesting. Where do I start?
JohnL: Forums would not exist without opinion. I think stating an opinion is a great thing; even if at times is a strong opinion. I guess in my "opinion" there has gotta be a point where you know that you are diliberatly pissing someone off [IMG][/IMG]
Sharon: Not really refering to any art in particular - external or internal. Trust me, I have seen some Tai Chi classes that are waaay to soft. They lack knowledge of the priciples and conceptual strucre absolutely necessary to a true IMA. My general statement is geared towards mcdojo-arts; and even then it depends on the martial artist and their drive to constantly get better. It has been said before in this forum; 'its not about the art, but the martial artist.
Kevin: Definately a misunderstanding here. Don't be confused, I don't train in a so-called 'soft' MA. Its kinda hard to explain, (mystery of the tao! damn Taoists [IMG][/IMG] I'll give it my best. Baguazhang and Xing-Yi are my primary focus areas in IMA's. Bagua and Xing-Yi both have a quality that is neither soft nor hard; it is a constant shift inbetween the two. To use the fist that Kempoman refered to for ex; Beng Quan/Crushing Fist begins with a soft quality to 'softly sneak in', and then a straight punch that is NASTY! Another vital quality is the concept of bringing the mind inside the body, ie Internal art.
Great discussion!!!
Happy T-day

[This message has been edited by Fisherman (edited 11-25-2003).]

#85294 - 11/27/03 03:30 PM Re: qi credibility
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3403
Loc: MiddleEarth
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fisherman:
... and only good for fighting women and childen.

ok so which one of you guys has been training BJJ with John Wills recently??? [IMG][/IMG]

[this is one of his favourite sayings...]

#85295 - 11/27/03 11:07 PM Re: qi credibility
Fisherman Offline

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
I picked that up in B.K. Frantzis' book; "Power of Internal Martial Arts". One of his teachers told him that.

#85296 - 12/29/03 03:00 AM Re: qi credibility
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina

Do any "Internal" practitioners spar? What would it look like if they did, a scene out of "Trancers", lol (not trying to be a smart-ass...I just thought that was funny). This is a serious question though and I wouldn't mind anyone's thoughts on this matter.

Also, would an internal stylist ever fight against a "external" fighter in competition? Say, an MMA competition??

What are your thoughts about this anyone?

I'm guessing that the internal stylists would wager that the "external" boys wouldn't stand a chance, right?


#85297 - 12/29/03 03:50 AM Re: qi credibility
Bossman Offline

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
You can't have an outside without an inside and vica versa... therefore you have to train them both the same. External training is a reflection of what's going on in the inside. If someone claims to be "Internal" or "External" then all they are doing is pronouncing which side they've neglected.

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