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#85171 - 02/16/05 06:58 AM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
johnchow

I am curious to what your feelings are about this?
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=done;action=display;num=1108447678

I do not have the time to reply to your rather lengthy posts at this time, but trust that I am eagerly awaiting my opprotunity to rebut your statements later today.

Regards
Chris

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#85172 - 02/16/05 02:30 PM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Oh my, those must have been among the longest posts I've read on this forum, johnchow seems to be a man of many words (nothing wrong with that, I for one am impressed)

I'll just think out loud here for a bit, hope noone minds?

You see, when I read johnchows stories about those formidable -let's say "fighters" for want of a better term- a chain of thoughts was set loose. I just thought I'd share some of it with you all, not that I'm all that sure you're interested, but I'm so proud over being able to produce such a long chain of thoughts with such a tiny brain that I just can't help myself!

Imagine a very competent killer (not necessarily too keen on killing though) let's say he's a bit of an illusionist too and perhaps with a grasp of the secrets of human psychology that's just a tad above the average of the population of which he's a part.
If only for the sake of argument, we might as well say he's also reasonably clever, this imaginary killer of our's.

Wouldn't it be safe to assume he'd be inclined to using his other tools as much as possible to prevent having to go to physical combat? If for nothing else, then for the risk of being injured or killed himself (remember our imaginary hero is clever, so he's not likely to think he's invincible)

My chain of thoughts, of which I'm so proud, was a fair bit longer than this; that is to say it was more "detailed" and it continued from where I chose to drop it in this post.
The reason I don't go into detail with this is mainly that the details aren't really so explicit (in my mind), but more of rough ideas, hence the citation marks around "details".
And the reason I didn't follow my beautiful, albeit somewhat blurry, chain to the end is the great respect I have for you people and your abilities to think for yourselves.

To spread some more light on the stories of remarkable feats in olden days, I'd really like to throw in a story from my own hometown and of this day and age, if I may? (I'm sure you'll bare with me ):
The thing is, one of my own students asked me just the other day about something (let's call it a "story") she had heard about me.
I told her that the rumor had no base in reality even to begin with in a way that hopefully opened her eyes a little bit. (my Ego wanted me to deny the rumor in a way that left the door ajar for her emagination to have something to work on, but my Ego is way to big and fat already so there's no need to feed id anymore, thank you very much )
It wasn't that remarcable a story, but it just made me realise how incredibly easy "legends" must be born.

Although I speculate here, I don't mean to take anything away from any living or dead "fighter", they have my fullest respect, as does johnchow although my interpretation of some phenomena might slightly differ from his at this point.
Also, the less-than-deadserious spirit of this post, mustn't be mistaken for ridicule, that it most certainly is not!

regards,
nenippal

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#85173 - 02/16/05 05:06 PM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Johnchow,

Let me see if i get this straight. In order for this technique of knocking down an attacker with out touching them the attacker must be angry and have full intent of causing harm to the individual? You also state that it can not be used for demonstration or as a test. Maybe you could tell me how it is then that yellow bamboo has a few video clips of them "demonstrating" this very technique on their own people. What preparation was given to make the attackers angry? Further more how is it that this can be achieved with one of your own as an attacker but wouldn't work on someone you don't know? I assure you i can get angry and attack an individual with the full intent of causing them serious harm much more effectively if they aren't my friend or instructor. This claim that it can only be performed in a "real" situation is a copout. I always hear it from those who make these absurd claims. If the claim is you can knock down an attacker with out touching them provided they are angry and intent to cause you harm i assure you that is no problem. If a person makes a claim they should be able to perform that task with little or no preparation, if you say you can burst into flames do it, if you claim you can knock down an attacker without touching them do it. In a "real" situation your not going to have the opportunity to prepare as we see in these video clips.

Let's say for the sake of argument that this does work. But as was explained in the video provided by fisherman the attacker must be angry, have intent to cause harm and be run screaming at you from a good 15-20 feet. What is the point? I've never seen anyone who actually intended to fight charge a person screaming, it gives the other guy too much time to react. Again, this type of technique only works on those willing to either be taken in by the farce or are willing to perpetuate the farce.

As for my mother-in-law. I can assure you she wasn't sheltered from her culture while growing up. She didn't grow up in a big city and her family has been involved in TCM for generations. She has only been living in the states for the last 3 years. She is the one who got my wife’s aunt interested in acupuncture, who has been practicing acupuncture for several years in her home town. I myself am preparing to attend Pacific College for Acupuncture when i get out of the military.

Your argument holds no water. If your technique doesn't work on outsiders then what use is it?

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#85174 - 02/16/05 06:16 PM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
laf,
You stole quite a few words right out of my mouth.

Johnchow,

Seems to me that you use the word belief in your posts a lot and that is exactly what you have. You have a belief. You do not have any credible evidence that no touch techniques really work and are functional within the martial context, at least on outsiders that are not affiliated with the yellow bamboo people.

There is a bit too much mysticism underlying what you are propagating and I personaly see this as smoke to blind people who don't know any better. However, it is a very good marketing tool because there are a lot of people who don't know and will be a sucker for this.

You seemed to be a bit upset at the way you have been treated on forums where you have posted. The reason people rip on you is because you make up outrageous claims of physical and mystic abilities that have not been proven. If you can’t take the heat then don’t say things that are going to make people get fired up.
You have the right to say what you want to say - just don’t expect everyone to believe what you want them to. And don't freak out when people aren't acceptive of the outrageous claims you are propagating.

Nobody here is saying that the previous masters of your lineage didn’t have skill. The masters of previous generations proved their skill and there is record of it. People of your generation have not. Esppecially in regards to yellow bamboo claims of being able to topple opponents without physically touching them. If the video's that arew available online are the so called proof, then I am not convinced.

[QUOTE]That is, this type of spiritual powers can not be used (or rather abused). It can only be used in a real (we really and truly mean REAL) life threatening situation. It can not be used for showing off or making bets. They can not be demonstrated or used as tests. They must be used only in a real, a truly REAL life and death situation. Abuse of such a power will not work.[/QUOTE]

This statement is complete BS - Who wants to train in something that they will never know is truly effective? You have to base your belief that your MA will work on stories that have not been proven.
Personally I’d rather learn something that I could use right after I have learned it. We train to refine our skills and make them better, but we do this on proven fact that what we are training works and is not based on a belief that it will work. This is like saying that God is going to stop a bullet for you because you have faith in Him. I’d rather not take that change (God is probably a pretty busy fella).

As I said earlier - you shouldn’t let yourself get all worked up over people not ‘believing’ in what you believe in. It happens all the time especially within the religious context. You are free to believe what you want and people are free to say what they want about hose beliefs. However, don’t get your panties in a bunch when you tell people that you are right and they are wrong and they are upset by that and retort.

I have seen other strange things as a martial artist. But a no-contact knockdown as a test with outsiders - never.
If this only works with insiders what is the point? Who are you going to use it on then? The people you train with?

[QUOTE]I suspect that even 'testing' (a poor use of the word in this context) with Yellow Bamboo practitioners in an unfamiliar ground may present 'some problems'. Your thoughts? [/QUOTE]

If it doesn’t work everywhere then it is useless to people who are not at the ‘source’ of power.

[QUOTE]This idea, I have to test out. I might be going to Bali at the end of May, and then to Malaysia etc after that. If you like, I will try this theory out with a video camera as evidence.[/QUOTE]

Go for it. We’d all like to see the proof. However, aren’t you going against your ‘universal laws’ by testing this?

[QUOTE]The bottom line of the above paragraph is this:-
Many, if not most of us, especially those who live in the cities, are quite ignorant of the depth of our traditions. We know only the very superficial parts of our traditions, and that we know only because we were brought up in the environment. Beyond that basic, we do no, and have not, studied our traditions. Very sad. Very sad. But that is how the world is - evolving, and we need to keep up with the rest of the world to move forward. [/QUOTE]

Everyone will at one point or another want to envelope change within their life. That change may be influenced by something that they percieve as great. What you described happens in reverse as well. There are people who after time in Western society, call it quits and move to old world places to detach themselves. This is you I asume you are making your sales pitch to. Especially considering what you learn within your system does not work outide of it’s ‘power source’.

Where did your rant about Asians wanting to gain western knowledge come from?! Are you trying to side track the point of discussion here?

This may be of interest to you.
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=done;action= display;num=1108447678

Why have you not thrown up your rant on these guys?

Just a few thoughts
(Sorry about the length of the post y'all)

Regards
Chris

[This message has been edited by Fisherman (edited 02-16-2005).]

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#85175 - 02/16/05 08:59 PM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Had a look at the videos on John Chows site.

Good lord.

What a load, though I must admit I havent laughed like that in a while.

You know, when I was younger I thought that, as I got older, I would be more tolerant of nonsense.

As it turns out, the opposite is true.

The only reason I am even condescending to post about this stupidity is in an effort to warn the uninitiated about this crap.

Dear God...

[This message has been edited by Korbillion (edited 02-16-2005).]

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#85176 - 02/17/05 09:14 AM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Can anybody help me please, I'm having trouble with my ESP?!
I was expecting to find an enormous post by johnchow by now, one that undoubtably would have set us all straight once and for all...
...well maybe it was just precognition and it's in the mail, so to speak?

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#85177 - 02/17/05 03:04 PM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Korbillion's uncontrolled reaction to johnchow's site made me curious so I just had to take a look for myself, but I don't really understand what the fuzz is all about?

I mean some of his stories in this thread I might tend to interpret in a different way than he does, but I've seen plenty of BS sites on the net and I personally wouldn't count johnchow's among them.

Admittedly I didn't read through all the material on his site, but I had a look of enough samples IMHO to make myself a HO.

Well, my two cents anyhow..

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#85178 - 02/18/05 10:15 PM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnchow:
Dear Mr. Moderator,

Thank you for asuring me that you will not tolerate profanity in your forum (unlike other forums where obscenities were hurled).

The answer to your question is already evident in my precious letter, as with all my other responses in other forums, and my own website.

That is, this type of spiritual powers can not be used (or rather abused). It can only be used in a real (we really and truly mean REAL) life threatening situation. It can not be used for showing off or making bets. They can not be demonstrated or used as tests. They must be used only in a real, a truly REAL life and death situation. Abuse of such a power will not work.

The above rule is not an artificially imposed restriction. It is a universal spiritual law. It has nothing to do with any master who has arbitrarily imposed it. I, myself, would have been happy if it were, because I would love to test it out myself. But it is not that way, as far as I have known since I was a boy, and it is not a recent ruling - it has always been for centuries. It is the tradition and belief. It simply will not work - is what is believed by tradition. Our forefathers should know. They used and tested the power, and they know when it will and when it will not work. Those who go against their advice will likely FAIL the tests. Be warned.

I note Tatang Ilustrisimo's method of getting around this restriction in his very old age (past 90 years old, and still very much a warrior - no pussy!!!!!). Tatang's power also included the skill of writing down magical latin inscriptions of power. Thus, he was able to get around this by using a piece of paper instead of test it directly. I was going to ask him for learning this, but never got the chance. Tatang passed away without passing on this particular set of skills. I have not heard of any other eskrima master who does this. In any case, Tatang only did this in the last few years of his life. He kept it secret and did not demonstrate this earlier in his life. We know he has anting-anting and orascion because of his life stories, but he did not demonstrate it earlier on.

Please also note what I mentioned about the Malay/Indonesian Silat masters not demonstrating this. They have the same belief. Therefore, we have faith that this is not an arbitrary restriction imposed by any master, but is a universal law. Beware of transgressing the universal law!!!!! It is a sin to abuse your spiritual powers. Use it legitimately - to save your own human life. This is a serious warning.

Frankly speaking, I myself, was surprised and taken back, when Alvin Donovan of Yellow Bamboo advised to do knockdown tests with outsiders. I was rather confused. From what I know, the conditions are not correct, so why would it work? The warnings from our forefathers are from their experiences. I would trust our forefathers. In any case, I have some reservations about ............ a private matter I do not like to disclose outside of Yellow Bamboo (but one of the testers know my views on this). Of course, as a martial artist, I was also very curious and wanted to confirm my understanding of our traditional beliefs and the universal laws by knowing the results of the Alain Konier knockdown test.

As for whether Yellow Bamboo has the power to execute the knockdown, I have no doubts it has, but it must comply with the universal law that it is not to be abused. It must be a REAL life threatening situation that is natural and random, and not artificially faked. I have heard life stories from Yellow Bamboo practitioners when they had accidents or 'unfortunate incidents'. These are not artificially induced.

In short, this testing would not have worked. I have no idea why we got into this knockdown test. Yellow Bamboo should forget about this testing and move on. Yellow Bamboo is a spiritual path, and should continue on its sacred crusade, without distractions such as this silly challenge knockdown tests.

As the testing has already been performed, and we know the results, I am satisfied it confirms my understanding. I am happy that the advice of our forefathers is correct.

I hope I have answered your question of :-
"Maybe you can explain why they were tested officially in Australia recently and failed. How could this happen if they are legit?"

Just a passing comment here:-

I am not sure whether this test was officially sanctioned by the founder Pak Serengen (He was a Silat teacher until he received a major awakening and gave up his Silat to concentrate on Yellow Bamboo). I can confirm that it was sanctioned by Alvin Donovan who is the International Director for Yellow Bamboo, as he helped arrange and encouraged it.

Just because the group in Perth failed the test does not necessarily mean that the group is a fraud, or Yellow Bamboo. As I said, it would not have worked because it was an abuse of spiritual power. It was something yellow Bamboo should not have done. In addition there is also another thing, .......... which I would rather not mention in public, but I have mentioned this to one of the testers, Fraser Johnson, in a PRIVATE capacity. It was for his eyes only, but if you want to have a look at it, I will send it to you if you give me a private email address and promise not to divulge the information.


As for your comment:-
"the ability to force an attacker to the ground with out touching them is something that yet to be proven to myself or anyone not directly involved with the person making the claim"

As mentioned, this is not possible, and will not work. At this point, I will be 'thick-faced' and ask you to trust me. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] It won't work! Fullstop. I have seen other strange things though, as a martial artist. But a no-contact knockdown as a test with outsiders - never. By the way, Alvin Donovan admitted to me a few times while I was in Bali that he himself is curious whether it will work with outsiders. He has 'tested' this as part of the standard exercises of Yellow Bamboo - within Yellow Bamboo, with Yellow Bamboo practitioners, in the Yellow Bamboo practice grounds, but he has never tested against outsiders. This is perhaps an important point. DOES IT WORK IN A TEST SITUATION AGAINST OUTSIDERS????

I have one more question:-
I am aware that in the universal law, that the places where we train and meditate are imbued with some power, and that our deities make their presence there. Practising in such places is easy, and it is easy to attain feats. I suspect that even 'testing' (a poor use of the word in this context) with Yellow Bamboo practitioners in an unfamiliar ground may present 'some problems'. Your thoughts?

Now, my doubts were further strengthened when I visited my host in Bali who is an Islamic mystic, and he questioned me on Yellow Bamboo practices, and he said, it won't work if you use a new place. You must use the same place Yellow Bamboo temple is. Other places do not have the power because the Yellow Bamboo deities are not there. It is not their place. Now, that strengthened my opinion. Unless, you are a very powerful Yelow Bamboo practitioner, such a Pak Serengen himself, maybe? This Islamic mystic is no lover of Yellow Bamboo, I can tell you. But he does not deny Yellow Bamboo has the power - in its usual places of practice in Bali.

I see an interesting scenario here. Even 'tested' against Yellow Bamboo practitioners may fail under certain conditions. This idea, I have to test out. I might be going to Bali at the end of May, and then to Malaysia etc after that. If you like, I will try this theory out with a video camera as evidence. Stay tuned after June 2005.


Your comment:-
"I personally would love to see proof of such claims"

Oh gee, so would I. I was very interested in confirming my suspected outcome of the Alain Konier test. As a martial artist, I am very very very interested in such things. Learn new things, man! Be open to new ideas, however strange they are. Might open a new world. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Actually, I started learning such traditional stuff when I was a boy, but before I could graduate and be independent, 2 things happened:-
1) I ate a taboo item by accident. That set me back to day 1.
2) I had to leave for Australia to study and my dad made me promise to give up all my psychic studies 'because the world has changed and I won't need them anymore'. In tradition, once given up, not easy to get back in.


Regarding your in laws and friends, I do not wish to offend, but, in reality, I have always made remarks to our own Asian people that "We Asians are sometimes more Western than Westerners. We are so ignorant of our own traditions. Sometimes, we are so ashamed to be Asians". What I mean here is that Asians are trying so hard to be on par and catch up with the West that they discarded many precious jewels they have and ran after the West, and adopt Western things. As an Australian friend of mine who is very familiar with the Tibetan community remarked to me more than 20 years ago, "The younger generations of Tibetans have a fascination for the West. They would hop on a plane to come to the West immediately if they have half a chance. It is as if they have the word 'The West' written on their forehead". This, I am afraid, is generally quite true of many Asians. I am one myself, so this is not a negative racist remark. It is an acknowledgement one of our weaknesses.

The bottom line of the above paragraph is this:-
Many, if not most of us, especially those who live in the cities, are quite ignorant of the depth of our traditions. We know only the very superficial parts of our traditions, and that we know only because we were brought up in the environment. Beyond that basic, we do no, and have not, studied our traditions. Very sad. Very sad. But that is how the world is - evolving, and we need to keep up with the rest of the world to move forward.

To illustrate, I know for a fact, that Chinese allopathic (ie. Western Medicine) doctors in Malaysia are very very anti Chinese medicine. Most vehemently opposed to traditional Chinese medicine (TCM). They really look down on it. They have advised friends of mine to keep away from Chinese herbs, even advising that Chinese herbs contain trace amounts of steriods (not knowing, in their ignorance, that the effects of trace amounts of naturally occuring steriods is different from those laboratory made concentrated chemicals). They say acupuncture does not work - it is a placebo only. This may surprise you. It not only surprised me, but annoyed me too, as I have been in the alternative medicine path for the past 29 years. I am doing my last subject to qualify for my TCM studies also. That is why I keep an ear out for these sort of comments. Coming from a Chinese in a Chinese community would surprise a Westerner's ears, but not mine, as I am very involved in the Chinese community, and really, many Chinese do not know their own traditions to much depth.

Another example:- Many Chinese are converting to Christianity, even in Asia. They simply re-iterate what they have been told about their own religion - that they are idol worshippers. That they worship stone or metal or wooden images only, and that these are only stone or metal or wood, and therefore not a god and such things have no power to help or save them. Only the Christian god or his son (who died under persecution) can save them. And because these Asians do not know what their traditions to any depth, they are easily convinced and quickly convert.

Well, I am a Buddhist and a Taoist. I do all my religious obligations, just like the (remaining) Asians. I do not worship stones, metals, or wood. Neither do I worship objects made of stone, metal, or wood. This is a misunderstanding of our own tradition! We pray to our own gods. These objects are statues or images made of these physical materials. When we kneel or salute or make offerings in front of these objects, we are paying respects to the gods REPRESENTED by these images. We are not praying to the objects. This is the very same idea as what the, for example, Roman Catholics, do when they kneel down, light candles, and pray to statues of Mary, the various saints, and to Jesus in the form of a dead or dying man on the cross. Buddhists and Taoist never abused and vilified Christians for worshipping such idols, but Christians never let up shoving this favourite 'happy hobby' down the throats of Asians who are ignorant of their traditions.

Actually, as a Buddhist and Taoist, I will never worship a god or spirit either. I worship only God, the Creator of the Universe. But I am free, ever so free, to pray to any god for assistance. I am free to pray to any human being for assistance, to extend this argument. Praying to somebody is a social thing - we are conversing with and asking that person (whether human or not) for a favour. It is just like talking! And we bring a gift to that person and we are polite and we tell them our problems, and we request whether they can help us. That is all. This is praying to the god, or anybody. Worshipping is to God the Creator. For a Buddhist, we take refuge in the Triple Gem. We are not idol worshippers!!!!! I have not heard this explanation from my Asian friends. I have to explain this to them whereever I go. A sad thing ......

For religious and spiritual things, don't be surprised if your Asian friends are ignorant of their native religions. Most Buddhists in Asia do not know even the basic tenets of Buddhism! Let alone asking them to list 10 sutra names, and so no need to try asking what each sutra is about. For the Taoists, it is even more sad. Other than knowing that we offer incense in the form of joss sticks and burning 'hell money', the local earth deity (Di Zhu or Datuk Kong), the name of Kuan Yin and Buddha and Kuan Kung, there is only a bit more of information we usually know.

In fact, many younger generation do not even believe in our gods, nor in Buddhas!!! Many parents also do not believe either. Remember - we have been colonised for the past 200 years. Without even realising it, we are more Western than we are Chinese. Most of us also try to appear 'educated' by telling you that these priests, mediums (equivalent of shaman) are frauds or Swindlers. 'Not real'. They may even try to raise their 'educated profile' by slamming their local religions as 'superstitions'.

Weel, I have news for these unfortunate brethens of mine - I am reasonably educated, I have lived in the West for 30 years too, and I am versed in both Western and Eastern traditions. I actively take part in all my native beliefs and practices. I am proud of my beliefs and traditions, including 30 years of living in the West, which is very nice, by the way. And I vigorously deny I am superstitious!!!!!

The above are generic statements applying to many Asians, and are not directed at your in laws, and at not time am I inclined to attempt to offend or vilify them. It is an admission, as I said, of our own defects. I would apologise to your in laws in advance if my words are construed otherwise.

By the way, what is JREF?

With respect,
John Chow
Kalis Ilustrisimo


[/QUOTE]

Actually according to these books I read, it can actually be preformed at will. I saw something on the descovery channel where a 97 year old lifted up his arm, had his hand flat, and a little yellow flame shot into the manrquin that was right in front of him.
And laf7773, I'll beg you not to claim this was to improve the channel's ratings, that's what monster garage and American Chopper is for.

Seriously though, a 'ki ball' is not possible as one must realize the relationship s/he has with stuff, living or not. A ki ball is indicative that the ki is discharged from the body, this is not the case. I have a relationship with you, whether you belive that or not. The method is not to expell ki, but to draw it to you. You are loosing nothing, you are gaining something, bits of your enemy's life. Consequently your opponent looses health.
It's when you are healing that the 'beam' travels toward and not from.

So why did the beam go into the statue, well maybe it was a 'healing ray' just meant to show he could do it.

And remember everyone, "everybody is a universe, but that doesn't mean we are separate." You know, I think I may of very well been the first person to say that.

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#85179 - 02/18/05 11:12 PM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I would love to see this show on the discovery channel your talking about. I would like to see this for myself as i'm sure it was just a special effect. As we all know the discovery channel is full of hard hitting facts, look at their coverage of the XMA. Feel free to take a look at the discovery web site and see if you recognize the show and pass it on to us here.

Also, what experience do you have with IMAs? Or at least what books are you reading.

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#85180 - 02/18/05 11:36 PM Re: Yellow Bamboo Suprise!!!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I forget what it's called (naturally), my friend Aaron said I should take up Tai Chi Chuan. And I did when I was 13, pretty young, huh? But you know what they say, "it's never too late to start."

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