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#85020 - 06/25/03 03:23 PM Fun with Qi
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Try this and see what results you get.

1. Try a finger or wristlock while standing on pavement or concrete
2. Try the same application but this time stand on grass and see the result

You should note a significant enhancement in the effectiveness of the technique.

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#85021 - 06/25/03 04:47 PM Re: Fun with Qi
Anonymous
Unregistered


Why does this work? (I agree that it does)
Sharon

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#85022 - 06/25/03 07:52 PM Re: Fun with Qi
York Karate Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
In the simplest terms your connection to mother earth via Kidney 1
You draw Qi from earth via this point

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#85023 - 05/04/04 06:06 AM Re: Fun with Qi
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Why does this work? (I agree that it does)
Sharon
[/QUOTE]

Does it really work? Will try it next lesson.

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#85024 - 05/04/04 06:48 AM Re: Fun with Qi
Ozmo Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/03
Posts: 142
Loc: Kuopio, Finland
Ok, assuming this works in the first place and assuming it works because the guy doing the lock "channels chi from the earth" or whatever... shouldn't the guy who is being the "victim" of the lock be able to do the same thing, thus cancelling out the other guys chi stuff? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

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#85025 - 05/04/04 10:19 AM Re: Fun with Qi
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
The Chinese do not distinguish between the spiritual and psychological, they say if an army fights in its own land if fights harder. In sports we have the home field advantage, could it be that this is a psychological result and we feel stronger and more refreshed in grass than on pavement?
Further have any of you experienced this when you were in school, on a normal school day it is really hard to get up and out of bed but if there is a field trip or on a Saturday it is really easy to get up. More Chi or psychology?

[This message has been edited by WADO (edited 05-04-2004).]

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#85026 - 05/04/04 01:48 PM Re: Fun with Qi
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
Maybe my fellow forumites can help me out here... I want to do an experiment, but I don't have the resources. Sharon, maybe you and your husband can help here, if you get a chance.

Here's the protocol:

Try kote-gaeshi, nikajo, or another of your favorite wrist locks under the following conditions:

1. Both locker and lockee on pavement.
2. Both locker and lockee on grass.
3. Locker on pavement, lockee on grass.
4. Locker on grass, lockee on pavement.

I have a theory, but I don't want to ruin the experiment by stating it. For the experiment to remain valid there shouldn't be much of an elevation difference between the pavement and grass. Anyone who's interested please give it a shot and report in, but try to be as objective as possible.

I will tell you the theory after the results come in, even if the results don't support it-- I've been wrong before.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#85027 - 05/04/04 01:54 PM Re: Fun with Qi
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
My husband is at work until 3am. I will have a go at this experiment tomorrow pm and let you know.
Sharon

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#85028 - 05/09/04 02:11 PM Re: Fun with Qi
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by York Karate:
Try this and see what results you get.

1. Try a finger or wristlock while standing on pavement or concrete
2. Try the same application but this time stand on grass and see the result

You should note a significant enhancement in the effectiveness of the technique.

[/QUOTE]


Tried it with my friend. It worked like you said. Weird? Has anyone got any other explanations why this might work? Ones not Ki related as well, try to eliminate all the obvious first(if there are any obvious)

P.S Good post York Karate

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#85029 - 05/10/04 08:20 AM Re: Fun with Qi
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
It is a good post and a good experiment. I will try and answer why I think that it works later.

BTW - York Karate (Sensei Gordon Travers) has passed on. Terrible loss it was.


Scott

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#85030 - 05/10/04 08:58 AM Re: Fun with Qi
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
OK, most painful if locker on grass and lockee on pavement.

When both on grass or both on pavement felt similar.

When lockee on grass and locker on pavement similar to both being the same.

I was expecting that when the lockee was on the grass he would feel less pain than when both on grass.

Sorry to hear about Sensei Travers.
Sharon

[This message has been edited by still wadowoman (edited 05-10-2004).]

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#85031 - 05/10/04 03:27 PM Re: Fun with Qi
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
I am very sorry to hear that Mr. Travers is no longer with us. I only know of him through his forum posts, but if they are any indication those closer to him have lost quite a person. My condolences.

It appears from the experiment results that my initial theory must have been incorrect, but I'll state it here for the record anyway. Later in the post I'll take a stab at modifying the theory based on the evidence:

Original theory: The amount of pain we feel from a joint lock is inversely proportional to how much resistance we can offer. In other words, if we are standing on solid pavement we should be able to exert more force through our frame to counter the locking action-- unless our partner gets effective kuzushi (balance breaking) at which point we can offer little or no resistance and therefore feel the lock more strongly. The theory was that if the lockee is on the grass he cannot resist the lock as effectively because the ground absorbs some of his energy and also because the softer surface causes him to lose his balance sooner. Based on this idea, the most painful combination should have been lockee on grass and locker on pavement. It appears that was not the case at all.

New theory: 1. People tend to do things with their body when they apply joint locks that make them less effective. 2. Joint pain results from having all the "slack" taken out, then having the lock applied still further.

Softer ground would tend to minimize any errors (such as tensing the legs and lifting the body rather than settling) that the person applying the lock might make. In other words, it sort of forces that total relaxation we strive for, and forgives us if we have more tension than we should in some parts of our body. On the lockee side, being on pavement affords no additional slack once the lock is applied. Softer ground might give a bit and absorb some of the power applied, but no such luck on hard surfaces.

So that's my "non-ki" explanation attempt for why the worst case is locker on grass lockee on pavement. It's only a guess, but I think all this stuff is really interesting (joint locking is one of the neatest aspects of aikijujutsu, IMHO, and I am studying it very closely these days). I'd love to know what the rest of you think about how or why this works, including any ki explanations.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

PS: Sharon, thanks for conducting the experiment for me-- I don't know anyone who will let me play with joint locks outside of class.

PPS: Do you think the experiment results would change if repeated with resisting and non-resisting lockees?

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#85032 - 05/14/04 03:31 PM Re: Fun with Qi
the504mikey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/19/03
Posts: 790
Loc: Louisiana, United States
BTTT...

Anyone have any more thoughts to share on this?

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#85033 - 05/22/04 10:06 PM Re: Fun with Qi
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes, actually. Another similar experiment:
Have one person hold an apple in their hand while holding their arm horrizontal to the ground. Person two tries to push down on hand. Do same experiment again, instead this time holding a bar of chocolate in their hand. The healthier food makes you stronger. (Try it, it works!) Also, try other health vs. "junk" food...

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#85034 - 05/22/04 10:14 PM Re: Fun with Qi
Anonymous
Unregistered


Actually, yes. Try this similar experiment:
Have someone hold an apple (or other fresh fruit) in their hand while their arm is horrizontal to the ground. Push down on their hand. Repeat experiment, except this time have them hold a condy bar or other un-nutritional food in their hand. Weaker? it works..Try it! Health food DOES make us stronger!

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#85035 - 05/23/04 11:21 AM Re: Fun with Qi
Anonymous
Unregistered


Check out my post "experiment to try"

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