I am wondering about different people's reasons for meditating. Many comments on this forum suggest a goal-oriented meditation practice, which is antithetical to some traditions, especially Buddhist traditions like Chan/Zen.

I meditate for different reasons and I do different meditations accordingly. I meditate most commonly to relax and for mental recharging kind of like rebooting the computer. I also meditate as part of my spiritual and prayer life. Lastly, I meditate to improve my martial arts. Then also I meditate with and without qigong of some kind, depending on my goals.

meditation has as its goal the same thing as martial arts (in the classical Japanese sense). The frame of mind during meditation is a direct analogue of the frame of mind just before a strike; it is intense concentration combined with a sense of seeing oneself from an external vantage point, an objective intensity which calma and excites at the same time, in different ways.

From my reading of classical & contemporary sources, goal-oriented meditation is ultimately dualistic and therefor counterproductive. And in a recent issue of a Buddhist magazine, Jet Li (who is a practicing Buddhist) is quoted as saying (in effect) that the spiritual dimensions of martial arts are just a lot of hype, and that enlightenment through martial arts discipline is not possible. Or at leastthat there is no clear recosrd of anyone having attained enlightenment in this way.

Comment?

Yes I believe it in one sense. I wouldn't pursue martial arts if my objective was enlightenment. For that, I went to religious seminary and alas, I am still looking. However, why couldn't a person achieve enlightenment (or lighterment) from martial arts as one might from other intensive activities such as religion, classical music, volunteer work, working hard to recover from an accident, child rearing, psychotherapy etc.?

The connection works the other way I suspect, once the person has descovered the true nature of reality and thus taken control over Ego and fear of death, he/she is infinitely more free to respond adequatlely in any situation, especially a threatening one.

(just my two cents)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nenipp:
...once the person has descovered the true nature of reality and thus taken control over Ego and fear of death, he/she is infinitely more free to respond adequatlely in any situation, especially a threatening one.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I would agree with that. Alan Watts said that governments hate mystics because the mystic is no longer afraid of dying, and therefor cannot be intimidated by the threat of force. It follows then that ANY threat of force loses its power in the face of spiritual realization. The problem for the martial artist, however, is that if he no longer fears a physical threat, then why address that threat with force?

He wouldn't take an academic point of view on the subject and ponder why this or why that, his reaction would be spontaneous, immediate and without ________ (sorry I can't find the word I'm looking for even in my native language)

just to clarify one thing:

meditation must be goal-oriented in at least one sense if anyone is to have a reason (motive) to take it up. To deny ANY goal to its study is just incorrect. True enough, it's a different sort of goal than mamy are used to, but let's at least be clear from the outset...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bobmax:
just to clarify one thing:

meditation must be goal-oriented in at least one sense if anyone is to have a reason (motive) to take it up. To deny ANY goal to its study is just incorrect. True enough, it's a different sort of goal than mamy are used to, but let's at least be clear from the outset...[/QUOTE]

OK, then what is the goal? I should warn you, I regard that question as a kind of koan--answering it might "break your brain."
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