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#83020 - 11/09/03 11:01 PM shins as hard as steel
eL Duce Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 108
Loc: Philippines
is it possible?? how??
what exercise should i perform??
do i have to take vitamins? what kinds of vitamins??

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#83021 - 11/10/03 07:32 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Break your leg severely, go to the hospital, have steel plates put in [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

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#83022 - 11/10/03 02:38 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
Kick the heavy bag a lot.

Then kick it some more.

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#83023 - 11/10/03 04:53 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
elleTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 236
Loc: USA
I read somewhere that people would hit their shins with hammers and rub rolling pins up and down them.

I dont recomend that.

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#83024 - 11/11/03 05:26 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
UKfightfreak Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco
[QUOTE]Originally posted by elleTKD:
I read somewhere that people would hit their shins with hammers and rub rolling pins up and down them.

I dont recomend that.

[/QUOTE]


I agree!!!

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#83025 - 11/11/03 09:09 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
eL Duce Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 108
Loc: Philippines
i'll try that, thanks!

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#83026 - 11/12/03 07:53 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eL Duce:
i'll try that, thanks![/QUOTE]

I hope you don't mean hit your shins with hammers and rub rolling pins up and down them.

JohnL

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#83027 - 11/13/03 10:00 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
eL Duce Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 108
Loc: Philippines
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
I hope you don't mean hit your shins with hammers and rub rolling pins up and down them.
JohnL
[/QUOTE]
haha! i'll just make my shins immune from pain by hitting them with hammers and rubbing rolling pins on them MODERATELY.. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#83028 - 11/14/03 05:05 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
karate-do Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 428
Loc: Wales
by hitting them lots you will eventually feel less pain this is because you have damaged the nerves so wont feel as much this is useful but bear in mind your body will try to regenerate those thousands of nerves you damaged and when it does some are likely to grow back incorrectly and cause severe pain.

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#83029 - 12/12/03 06:29 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Kevin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 122
From my understanding this steel shin results from the GRADUAL proccess of creating "microfractures" and then letting them heal. When a bone is injured the body heals it and then reinforces it so it wont get damaged so easily. Doing this without letting the bones heal could cause some severe problems though.

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#83030 - 12/14/03 07:42 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Ender Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/29/03
Posts: 2253
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
My Senpei has been doing this method for years. No ill effects yet (and hes a smart guy whos done his research).

Not to mention his shins are like freaking IRON (not exaggerating!).

He jsut walks around all day wacking his shins witha jo staff.

I do this same training only a MUCH smaller scale.

Again, no illeffects yet.

-Dan

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#83031 - 01/29/04 05:03 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Shi Miao Zun Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 198
Loc: Windsor UK
Rather than using a hammer or a rolling pin you might want to begin with a bundle of reeds like wicker or something as these tend not to cause as much trauma. You should also undertake this training carefully and dont try to over do it ir you might hurt your legs permanantly. After this training its important to massage the area thouroughly and if you can find it use some chinese medicine, as this will speed recovery and results.

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#83032 - 04/28/04 11:22 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Tatsumaru Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 58
Someone told me they saw a guy kick an old iron radiator hard as they could and say "i feel no pain" but it got me thinking.
and I came up with one conclusion.
"his legs are like iron now but their gonna have so many problems when he gets older"

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#83033 - 04/29/04 08:42 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
shaolin black dragon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 10
In my school, we dont beat our legs with hammers, but smack them with what i believe is bamboo. We also do shin to shin training. It doesnt only damage nerves, it hardens the bone. This can also be done with the forearms.

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#83034 - 04/30/04 08:02 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shaolin black dragon:
In my school, we dont beat our legs with hammers, but smack them with what i believe is bamboo. We also do shin to shin training. It doesnt only damage nerves, it hardens the bone. This can also be done with the forearms.[/QUOTE]

Show me the medical proof that whacking bones makes them harder.

JohnL

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#83035 - 05/26/04 05:15 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
Thats the way the body is desgined John, Use it or lose it. This is a process of years though and should be done with much moderation. Coral Calcium is very helpfull too, and has wonderous effects on the body. Massaging is important.

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#83036 - 05/26/04 08:48 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by otobeawanker:
Thats the way the body is desgined John, Use it or lose it. This is a process of years though and should be done with much moderation. Coral Calcium is very helpfull too, and has wonderous effects on the body. Massaging is important.[/QUOTE]

As always oto, you've posted total crap.

JohnL

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#83037 - 05/26/04 08:02 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
How is that crap. What evidence can you present to back up you claim.

An example from my life.

A while back we started playing paintball at night in darkness. After a few months of this our night vision had improved by at least a hundred percent.

It is documented. That Astronauts after spending long durations in space. When they return to earth. Things in the distance are often blurry because they have been in small places for so long their eys have adapted to only being used at short distances.

If your going to dispute me in the future please use some evidence to back it up.

[This message has been edited by otobeawanker (edited 05-26-2004).]

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#83038 - 05/27/04 06:06 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
Im waiting for your rebuttal. Is saying peoples comments and questions are crap what you do to make yourself feel like a big man?

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#83039 - 05/28/04 07:44 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Oto

All I asked for was the medical proof whacking bones made them harder, which is what you claimed (I believe incorrectly) in your post.

You gave no medical proof, still advising people to undertake what I believe to be a poor method of training.

As such I believe your post was crap.

Again, where is your medical evidence to back up your claim.

JohnL

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#83040 - 06/27/04 06:10 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


How do you know when you're hitting hard enough to microfracture your bones?

Seems a little farfetched.

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#83041 - 07/08/04 04:05 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


It is a well known fact that when a bone is broken or injured it heals back stronger than it was.

This is the same concept behind shin conditioning just on a smaller scale.

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#83042 - 07/15/04 11:09 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's not like some crack heads came up w/ this and posted in an internet forum. Martial artists have done this for years. Especially in Muay Thai and Karate. I've heard two sides though, about long term damage. Some say the nerves grow back and your in pain others say its fine. I'm going to go ahead and start conditioning though.

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#83043 - 07/16/04 12:30 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


Two sides to the coin ... if it works for you kewl ... if not, no sweat.

Different strokes for different folks ... go for what you know and respect others to do the same [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


Humbly,

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#83044 - 07/27/04 02:51 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


I saw one kickboxing match where a fighter did a roundhouse kick and the defender only put up his leg to block it and the kicker's shin broke. It was ugly, half of the guy's lower leg just flopped over. Also, I discovered that there are several martial arts that don't use kicks with the shin including okinawan karate, the art I started my martial arts journey with. Of the four kicks in shorin-ryu, the groin kick is the only kick where the shin could even remotely be used. Anatomy: Recalcified bone and mini-fractures = brittle and weaker bone structure (unless taking calcium magnesium supplements, but even then it's system wide and not localized). Nerves grow back in time so deadening training has to be constant or else a little feeling will come back, sometimes more sensitive in some spots than before (watch out for that peroneal nerve). Broken shin bones occur more often among fighters in Thailand than most people realize. Conclusion: Train to be sensitive enough to know when or when not to use a roundhouse kick.

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#83045 - 07/27/04 03:10 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
White-Tiger Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 280
Loc: Adelaide,australia
Iv seen that video to, Probably the worst kickboxing injury iv seen. Kind of discourages you from that style of round house's doesn't it?

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#83046 - 07/27/04 03:26 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
I've broken more base ball bats than a ball player and never have I had to condition my shins, what bunch of BS. Your shins as a MA are banged up enough from fighting and the heavy bag. There is know reason to smash or bang your leg with heavy objects to try and condition them. The clean break come from speed and power, not a "conditioned shin, leg" OK for the skeptics, I have heard of people that do condtion thier shins for fighting, I suppose it has to do with the pain threshold or something?

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#83047 - 07/28/04 11:59 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


A kid in our class practices iron shin (along with most of the higher level students) but they do not go around whacking themselves with hammers or rolling pins. they simply roll a weighted bar on their shins. He twisted his knee and had to go to the E.R. they told him his bones were much more dense than average. so they did a bone density test on his brother, who also trains in iron shin, and his were much more dense. I don't know if it documented proof that iron shin increases bone density, but i don't see why not. saying rolling a bar on your shins breaks bones makes as much sense as lifting weight tears up muscles and makes you weaker.

Everything should be done in moderation. Whacking your shins with rods will cause problems just like lifting more weight than you should will hurt you, not to mention make you weak.

[This message has been edited by coxne (edited 07-28-2004).]

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#83048 - 08/07/04 10:52 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


Grr. My boyfriend used to train in Muay Thai (he's Laos, so duh) and Kung Fu. To condition his legs and forearms, he hits trees as hard as he can. When first starting out, he tied a bunch of shirts around a tree than wrapped in it ducktape. It's quite effective, because his shins are hard enough to break my bones.

<3linlin

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#83049 - 08/16/04 02:51 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Coxne mentioned bone density thru training. Sure - it's just like building muscle via lifting. It's a cycle of breaking down & building the bone back up. The "tunnels" in the bone get smashed out of existence.

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#83050 - 08/17/04 01:49 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


ironfoot,

is what I mentioned a good way to train? like i said, people at my school do that, but I was wondering if it was infact safe to do...

our teacher does, and he doesn't appear to be experiancing any problems...

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#83051 - 09/29/04 12:24 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


It is provin scientificly that bones regenerate calcium to area's of the body that take abuse. I actually happen to catch a discovery show on this & it showed the elderly and their bone structers whare a man walks afters 80 some years their bones were stronger and thicker in the areas from just walking & over time the calcium built those parts of the bone to be stronger.

I am a practioner of the Iron method, I condition my fist, hand, fingers forarms, legs ribs solar plex even spear toes etc... But remember it is your choice to choose the path of the iron method, I do have pains sometimes but then I dont have to punch or kick that hard to hurt sombody, the bible does say to bang your body so bang away!! But, todays day people have guns, so if you choose to do it then it's totally up to you, but not needed unless your a competitior or you just want them for your own belief, you never know when you may have to cut someone in half with a low leg round kick or spear hand through someone chest or just have the abilty to take a powerfull blow.

A good conditioning program is to start softly with a kali or bambo stick while you sit in the splits smacking your shins. Another way is to rub your shins deeply with tiger balm then roll a coke bottle up and down your shins. Now If possible and you find bamboo shoots then using a coke bottle to roll and grind them into your shins, bamboo has a nerve agent in it that kills nerves very dangerous but effective. Then their is always kicking a tree is another good way or with a partner and go shin to shin.

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#83052 - 09/29/04 04:58 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
1st Round KO Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 1497
Loc: New York City, USA
interesting posts...
i dont know the scientific explanation to shin conditioning but i do know it to work. i would not strike my shin wih a bar but rolling does work.
all i do is hit the heavy bag and pads and thats conditioned my shins to be relatively hard. however, i do not believe this nonsense of people kicking iron rads with their shins at full power...its pretty obvious that when a softer object strikes a harder one, its the soft object that will give. only a moron would kick anything iron with his shin at full power and expect to walk away.
also, shins need to be warmed up as well. youll always be able to hit the bag harder and with less sensitivity after a few minutes of warming them up.
finally, i do believe that my shins may be denser due to training but i also believe that a large part of the shin conditioning is just the deadening/ callousing of the skin on the shin....my shins look like snake skin...same thing as a construction worker who has tough skin on the hands.

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#83053 - 10/22/04 01:36 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


yeah hehehe, full power would be idiotic untill and if you can build up to that. slowly and with time is my theory, As long as you condition every day you will show progress.

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#83054 - 12/21/04 04:34 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


you also begin to not feel pain because of a buildup of scar tissue from continual abuse to your shins (rolling bamboo on it and hitting it with bamboo)

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#83055 - 01/12/05 03:51 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi all,
My .02 cents worth... Found out in Okinawa, back in 1978 what kotaita (body conditioning) was like. A little green belt like to took my arms and legs off (at least it felt that way!) with some blocks.. The conditioning used is painful, but it sure as heck works. I'm 48 now, and with approximately 40+ bones broken (not all chop chop!!), still moving, and still do ocassional body conditioning. Granted, not major bone breaks (fingers, ribs, toes,etc..) but so far no adverse effects..
Can't see well, can't hear well... but basically sure nothing to do with the body conditioning :-)

And yes, I use a 5 lb sledge for general shin, arm training... (just have to use common sense and start slow). I would probably not recommend this training, and my Sensei has told me to slow down on it myself..( Still like to though :-) )

Frank

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#83056 - 01/13/05 04:23 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


now the thing is your not making your shins harder your conditioning yourself to the pain of hitting your shins.

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#83057 - 01/13/05 02:28 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


From my limited understanding, done right, calcium deposit buildup strengthens, plus muscle (tuff-ning) forearm, calf, thigh...etc).
Helps when the block is not a block, but a way to damage/break. Have seen it used, and used it myself.. works for me.. and a whole bunch of Okinawans still use the body conditioning..


As in most everything.. moderation.

Okay, my .04 cents worth.

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#83058 - 01/13/05 02:35 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oops, just saw the post from karate-do about the nerves growing back and causing severe pain.

Where did you gain this info? Been doing body conditioning since I was 20, and now 48.. (about time to slow it down. :-) ), have have no crippling nerve damage.. I know a lot of folks that started way before me (and a lot frigging tougher) that have no nerve damage of any kind.

Was worried for a bit about arthiris (excuse spelling), but so far, so good. More worried about a bunch of bones broke/bent than the body conditioning... but still fairly spry for edging up on fifty (can still do 2 finger pushups :-) )

Later,

Frank

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#83059 - 01/30/05 12:09 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL THATS awesome im 15 i really want to make my shins like metal so i can go around kicking letter boxes off haha that would be maddddd fun!

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#83060 - 02/01/05 08:53 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ever seen a radiography of a broken bone after it has healed? The bone, in addition to repairing itself, has grown thicker where the crack was, since the body has identified this precise spot as likely to take damage in the course of the individual's activities and makes sure it won't break again if hit at the same place. By hitting their bones repeatedly, the martial artists who favour this method simply cause hundreds of micro-cracks, hence thickening and reinforcing the whole bone without the inconvenience of a properly broken limb. At the same time, they also make the hit area less sensitive to pain (because having iron shins is no good if the pain from the hit brings you to the ground twisting in agony), quite in the way a builder's hands get tougher, as said previously by 1st Round KO. African tribesmen walk barefooted on surfaces that would get european feet to bleed like a stuck pig in a matter of meters, because their skin on this precise spot is about as thick and tough as the sole of our shoes. The body has a good capacity to adapt, and the best way to get what you want is to put yourself in the situation you expect to have to face. This precept has its limits, though. DO NOT cut your head off repeatedly in order to achieve resistance to katana blades. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#83061 - 02/03/05 12:13 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


I took Muay Thai for a while, but work and school eventually caused me to stop. I did work the bag something fierce though, so my question is, have my shins gotten any weaker or once those microfractures heal do they stay solid forever? Its been a little over a year now.

- Op. Skinny Ninja

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#83062 - 02/03/05 06:03 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello,
In the karate Dojo I train in the shihan put up two rough sacks full of sand. The bags are very heavy and hard. People punch and kick the bags. Not using full power,more of a light tap to condition their knuckles and shins. This is optional training.
I've seen pictures of the late Shihan Mas Oyama (kyokushin karate)hitting his knuckles with a hammer... I'll stick to the rough sacks...
Cheers. Gary.

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#83063 - 02/04/05 05:08 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, the microfractures themselves make the tibias weaker as long as they exist; but as soon as they have fully healed (which I believe is rather quick for it's just microfractures we're talking about), the tibias are bigger and denser than before, which makes for tougher shins, and will stay that way.

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#83064 - 02/10/05 01:05 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am not sure on the bone aspect, but mine bruise easier when I stop kicking the bag for a few months.

As for people who don't believe in bones getting stronger, please explain how people punch through bricks, ice, cinderblocks heck I even seen a guy do beach rocks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OperationSkinnyNinja:
I took Muay Thai for a while, but work and school eventually caused me to stop. I did work the bag something fierce though, so my question is, have my shins gotten any weaker or once those microfractures heal do they stay solid forever? Its been a little over a year now.

- Op. Skinny Ninja
[/QUOTE]

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#83065 - 02/10/05 08:07 PM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


The bones definitely DO get stronger. However, punching through bricks, tiles, boards, etc (shiwari) is something different. It is achieved through crafty physical mechanics which I'm too lazy to explain here. But when a shiwari is properly performed, the striking hand/fist/foot/head/etc takes little or no shock: the brick takes it all. I know it sounds crazy, but it's actually pretty logical when you know how it works. Speed is the main key...
Some people, however, perform similar stunts out of mere toughness: I've seen such people attempting records on TV, failing now and then to break one of their targets and just trying again (if it had been proper shiwari, the power of the impact on the failed attempt would have broken the guy's bones like glass rods). But even when successful, this is definitely not recommended! The fact that the guy can fail without too much damage, strangely enough, proves that he actually always takes SOME damage even when successful (it's a bit complicated to explain, but it's true) and will probably have problems in the future. A real shiwari performer takes no damage at all when he's successful. And if, by chance, he were not, his power would be more than enough to break his own hand no matter how tough...
Still, make no mistake: breaking your hand when attempting to punch through a brick should NOT be taken as a proof that your shiwari technique is correct... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#83066 - 03/10/05 09:44 AM Re: shins as hard as steel
Anonymous
Unregistered


It is possible we practice this techniqe in my style. its called kotiata or bone hardening. we use a kotiata stick or hammers, baseball bats ECT. to hit our shins
0r other bones and it builds calcium deposits on your bones witch makes them harder. its very affective if you do it regularly.
ps. you will know its working when your shins start developing bumps

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#83067 - 05/22/05 01:53 AM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: 1st Round KO]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
From my experiences I have found that it does work for me. When I was young I dedicated my whole life to martial arts I mean eat sleep breath martial arts 24/7 I basically had no life my family members called me insane or crazy I practiced from 8 in the morning to 10 at night. This went on for about 4 years untill I finally realized theres more to life then just martial arts lol. During my intense crazy years of training not only where my shins hard as steel but they began to form a small arc that curves outward. Even my mom noticed and said whats wrong with your shins it looks gross. To make a long story short it works but you gotta put alot of time into it and even be a little crazy but it works. One example is my friend was wearing his brand new shock absrobant motorcycle helmet he said if he fell of his bike the helmet would not break and protect his head. So I said I wanna test it with my shins and all my friends new the reputation of my steel shins except for him so he said OK so I hooked kicked him in the head with his helmet on and he went flying and blacked out. When he finally woke up he was pissed at me not for knocking him out but for putting a small crack in his brand new supposedly unbreakable helmet.
_________________________
Talk is cheap take it to the pit.

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#83068 - 05/23/05 04:57 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: eL Duce]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I was taught to find a 6" diameter strong but flexible but tree kick it at about calf level, move up to a 12" diameter tree after you have taken the bark off the smaller tree then up to a 18" tree you won't be able to move it as much when you can absorb that strike your shins won't be as hard a steel butit be darn near close. You will be able to break baseball bats easy.

Don't ask your Doctor about this technique or he will think you are crazy. Its old system way of conditioning the shin.

I think now you pour oniment on your shin while a beautiful woman message it in, as U sip on lemon flavored ice tea, siting up in a leather lounger. And take a pill to loose weigh and build muscles and endurance, 21st century sweating.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#83069 - 06/05/05 12:30 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: Neko456]
DINAMO788 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 41
Loc: body in US, heart in USSR
well if anyone has seen kickboxer with Van Damme, then juss kick over a palm tree then fall over holding your bloodied leg and vuola! or just do the the bad guy(i think tong po) did and juss try to kock down a beam support a bulding.
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#83070 - 06/06/05 06:00 AM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: JohnL]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
JohnL:
Shin and Forearm hardening has medical explanations behind it. Your body is a living organism and although evolution has forgotten the human race there is microevolution that takes place. People's bodies tend to adapt to the environment. When you do weightlifting, you are basically killing muscle fibre, this shocks the body and it builds extra muscle fibre to cope with the change of environment. The same with bones, it is proven that your bones completely replace themselves every 8 years. So when your bones receive impacts they start absorbing more calcium, if there is enough calcium in your system. This increases therefore the density of the bone and therefore makes it stronger. Peak mass density for the average adult male is around the age of 27. The pain factor comes from killing your nerves, and/or increasing your pain threshold. This is the same principles as deadening your forearms. In the art i practice we hit our forearms (the outside) against each other to strengthen them because we use them for blocking and all sorts. It doesnt make sense to do that to your shins unless you are doing muay thai or an art that uses shins extensively. If you kick with your heel, why would you kill the nerves of your shin.
Unless you make your living from MA competitions, why would you do that. If you are just learning MA for selfdefence that type of strengthening is unnecessary to that degree. If you kill your nerves to the extent that Van Dam would have done if the film was real. Then it would not cause any structural problems to your shins but you will get phantom pains when you are older.
Arthritis you get if you do the strengthening regime on a joint. For example you should never do that to your knuckles because you will get arthritis.
Heavy bag work is fine for knuckles.

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#83071 - 06/06/05 11:49 AM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: DINAMO788]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The main refernce points you guys have are from movies, that Van Dame's made, no doubt. Let me tell you this was an actual training technique. I don't know how much Van Dame dramatized it in his movie but this was how you trained back in the 70-80s and I repeat it was a actual taught training method

Of course things have changed once analyzed and health issues discovered the same as hand conditioning. But it has its advantage is street fights and self defense. You young bucks don't think anything existed accept for what you see or hear in the movies. I find your comments amusing and amazing that you compare actual old time training methods to a Movie made to shock and entertain.

I agree its not neccessary to toughen the body like that anymore especially in pu$$yland USA, where every working dog, sport car, weapon or training method is bastardized into a sport or game. It was once called TKD now we have TaeBO, nothing against Billy Blank, but prime example.

Have you seen his Taebo DVDs/Movies?

By the way I don't have arthitist in either my hands or legs, my right hands kinda ugly though, massive knuckles and hard all over. I don't write really pretty but I never could.


Edited by Neko456 (06/06/05 11:55 AM)
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#83072 - 06/06/05 12:44 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: Neko456]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
You dont have arthritis? from what dont you have arthritis?
If you beat your fist against wood to get it stronger then you will get arthritis!! How old are you? Why is your fist like that? What conditioning regime have you followed?

I dont mean to sound rude, but you havent really given anything in the way of evidence or arguement

It was a training method, in thailand they beat their legs against yound bannana trees as kids to strengthen their shins, they train all their lives (Muay thai) for fights that will either make them or break them for the few short years they have as MA competitors. Its not necessary to do that anymore. And just because its not necessary doesnt make every MAist or every school commercialized and pu$$yland.

TaeBo is such a load of......

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#83073 - 06/07/05 01:52 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: MAGr]
shorin-ji Offline
Member

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 146
Loc: victoria, b.c, canada
a sensai of mine told me that kicking trees works well

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#83074 - 06/07/05 05:35 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: MAGr]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Magr

I'm 40+ years old I look like I'm in my early 30s I am told. My hands are slightly condition so are other parts of my body, when we use to spar it was bare knuckle, you didn't see any of this walking through a strike to deliver a heavier strike as you see in glove sports. A roundhouse or side kick to the stomach or ribs could end break a rib or end a match. Light back knuckle strikes to the temple could KO a fighter, knifehand strikes to the side of the neck had the same effect.

In street fights my assoicates would hit guys and they got up, if I hit the same guy he stayed down and bled. I don't know what to say, I trained before all this saftey equipment and rules, now I train in gear now because people don't like to bleed and I don't either now. But like your tour in Thailand, we trained that way because it was the only way the Instructor knew how to train. And there were not that many schools close or near so you had to shutup and take it to stay. It was a privelige to bleed to learn. I know thats arcade now but thats how it was.

I agree a 100% you don't have to train that way now.
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#83075 - 06/08/05 07:26 AM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: Neko456]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
We also do most activities (focus pads, heavy bag work) with knuckles, I will be the first to say that MA is an art and its self defence NOT a sport, and so a certain degree of conditioning is required. I dont need to condition my nose not to break because i dont care if it breaks once a year (if that) in a street fight, but i cant go to my office with black eyes and bleeding noses, so we wear head gear.
A certain degree of conditioning is needed because we are MAists and our strikes need to be effective and they need to cause maximum pain to the opponent whilst minimum damage to us. BUT there are clever ways and stupid ways to condition.
I think that given that you are living in todays modern society, that you dont need to batter your fists against marble in order to become immune to pain, that you dont need to kill the nerves in your body so that you are like on steroids when someone hits you.

I do iron palm training and soon i will start breaking. But it has taken me 2 years to get here, i have done it the smart way, i still have all my nerves and i have full function of my fingers and will have in later life, but i can knock someone out with one well placed strike.

I am not bashing your instructor's teaching methods, each person does what they need to do.

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#83076 - 06/08/05 01:09 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: MAGr]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
What I notice with the new modren sport Martial artist they train for combinations they don't use the open hand hardly ever, they only use mid level or higher kicks. And they kick and punch to the head, chest and midriff.

The difference is that old timer were taught to strike specific parts of the head, chest or midriff more accurate targets were selected. The temple, lower jaw, between the eyes, eye, side of neck, chin, bridge or under the nose. The chest area was under heart, solar plex, small ribs, liver and lower abdomen, on in to merdian chi strike etc...
The new practictioner has fast combinations and if informed are more concisous of the various ranges of fighting but some still have not starting to Mastered either.

There are a lot of new good practictioners out there but there is something to be said about old sytle training. And we wonder why its not as effective now.

I again I agree heavy conditioning is not needed. The proper way is always the right way. Conditioning and later ligament and healing oniments to assist in presevering and regeneration of body never endings.

Good luck in your iron palm training, you seem to have a grasp of whats needed. Sometimes you need to train out of the gloves.

I totally agree Business suits, board room meetings and black eyes or broke nose don't go well together.


Edited by Neko456 (06/08/05 01:18 PM)
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