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#83070 - 06/06/05 06:00 AM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: JohnL]
MAGr Offline

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Shin and Forearm hardening has medical explanations behind it. Your body is a living organism and although evolution has forgotten the human race there is microevolution that takes place. People's bodies tend to adapt to the environment. When you do weightlifting, you are basically killing muscle fibre, this shocks the body and it builds extra muscle fibre to cope with the change of environment. The same with bones, it is proven that your bones completely replace themselves every 8 years. So when your bones receive impacts they start absorbing more calcium, if there is enough calcium in your system. This increases therefore the density of the bone and therefore makes it stronger. Peak mass density for the average adult male is around the age of 27. The pain factor comes from killing your nerves, and/or increasing your pain threshold. This is the same principles as deadening your forearms. In the art i practice we hit our forearms (the outside) against each other to strengthen them because we use them for blocking and all sorts. It doesnt make sense to do that to your shins unless you are doing muay thai or an art that uses shins extensively. If you kick with your heel, why would you kill the nerves of your shin.
Unless you make your living from MA competitions, why would you do that. If you are just learning MA for selfdefence that type of strengthening is unnecessary to that degree. If you kill your nerves to the extent that Van Dam would have done if the film was real. Then it would not cause any structural problems to your shins but you will get phantom pains when you are older.
Arthritis you get if you do the strengthening regime on a joint. For example you should never do that to your knuckles because you will get arthritis.
Heavy bag work is fine for knuckles.

#83071 - 06/06/05 11:49 AM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: DINAMO788]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The main refernce points you guys have are from movies, that Van Dame's made, no doubt. Let me tell you this was an actual training technique. I don't know how much Van Dame dramatized it in his movie but this was how you trained back in the 70-80s and I repeat it was a actual taught training method

Of course things have changed once analyzed and health issues discovered the same as hand conditioning. But it has its advantage is street fights and self defense. You young bucks don't think anything existed accept for what you see or hear in the movies. I find your comments amusing and amazing that you compare actual old time training methods to a Movie made to shock and entertain.

I agree its not neccessary to toughen the body like that anymore especially in pu$$yland USA, where every working dog, sport car, weapon or training method is bastardized into a sport or game. It was once called TKD now we have TaeBO, nothing against Billy Blank, but prime example.

Have you seen his Taebo DVDs/Movies?

By the way I don't have arthitist in either my hands or legs, my right hands kinda ugly though, massive knuckles and hard all over. I don't write really pretty but I never could.

Edited by Neko456 (06/06/05 11:55 AM)

#83072 - 06/06/05 12:44 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: Neko456]
MAGr Offline

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
You dont have arthritis? from what dont you have arthritis?
If you beat your fist against wood to get it stronger then you will get arthritis!! How old are you? Why is your fist like that? What conditioning regime have you followed?

I dont mean to sound rude, but you havent really given anything in the way of evidence or arguement

It was a training method, in thailand they beat their legs against yound bannana trees as kids to strengthen their shins, they train all their lives (Muay thai) for fights that will either make them or break them for the few short years they have as MA competitors. Its not necessary to do that anymore. And just because its not necessary doesnt make every MAist or every school commercialized and pu$$yland.

TaeBo is such a load of......

#83073 - 06/07/05 01:52 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: MAGr]
shorin-ji Offline

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 146
Loc: victoria, b.c, canada
a sensai of mine told me that kicking trees works well

#83074 - 06/07/05 05:35 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: MAGr]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA

I'm 40+ years old I look like I'm in my early 30s I am told. My hands are slightly condition so are other parts of my body, when we use to spar it was bare knuckle, you didn't see any of this walking through a strike to deliver a heavier strike as you see in glove sports. A roundhouse or side kick to the stomach or ribs could end break a rib or end a match. Light back knuckle strikes to the temple could KO a fighter, knifehand strikes to the side of the neck had the same effect.

In street fights my assoicates would hit guys and they got up, if I hit the same guy he stayed down and bled. I don't know what to say, I trained before all this saftey equipment and rules, now I train in gear now because people don't like to bleed and I don't either now. But like your tour in Thailand, we trained that way because it was the only way the Instructor knew how to train. And there were not that many schools close or near so you had to shutup and take it to stay. It was a privelige to bleed to learn. I know thats arcade now but thats how it was.

I agree a 100% you don't have to train that way now.

#83075 - 06/08/05 07:26 AM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: Neko456]
MAGr Offline

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
We also do most activities (focus pads, heavy bag work) with knuckles, I will be the first to say that MA is an art and its self defence NOT a sport, and so a certain degree of conditioning is required. I dont need to condition my nose not to break because i dont care if it breaks once a year (if that) in a street fight, but i cant go to my office with black eyes and bleeding noses, so we wear head gear.
A certain degree of conditioning is needed because we are MAists and our strikes need to be effective and they need to cause maximum pain to the opponent whilst minimum damage to us. BUT there are clever ways and stupid ways to condition.
I think that given that you are living in todays modern society, that you dont need to batter your fists against marble in order to become immune to pain, that you dont need to kill the nerves in your body so that you are like on steroids when someone hits you.

I do iron palm training and soon i will start breaking. But it has taken me 2 years to get here, i have done it the smart way, i still have all my nerves and i have full function of my fingers and will have in later life, but i can knock someone out with one well placed strike.

I am not bashing your instructor's teaching methods, each person does what they need to do.

#83076 - 06/08/05 01:09 PM Re: shins as hard as steel [Re: MAGr]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
What I notice with the new modren sport Martial artist they train for combinations they don't use the open hand hardly ever, they only use mid level or higher kicks. And they kick and punch to the head, chest and midriff.

The difference is that old timer were taught to strike specific parts of the head, chest or midriff more accurate targets were selected. The temple, lower jaw, between the eyes, eye, side of neck, chin, bridge or under the nose. The chest area was under heart, solar plex, small ribs, liver and lower abdomen, on in to merdian chi strike etc...
The new practictioner has fast combinations and if informed are more concisous of the various ranges of fighting but some still have not starting to Mastered either.

There are a lot of new good practictioners out there but there is something to be said about old sytle training. And we wonder why its not as effective now.

I again I agree heavy conditioning is not needed. The proper way is always the right way. Conditioning and later ligament and healing oniments to assist in presevering and regeneration of body never endings.

Good luck in your iron palm training, you seem to have a grasp of whats needed. Sometimes you need to train out of the gloves.

I totally agree Business suits, board room meetings and black eyes or broke nose don't go well together.

Edited by Neko456 (06/08/05 01:18 PM)

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