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#82645 - 07/16/01 04:06 AM Downblocks
Hachiman Offline
Member

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Goldsboro, NC, USA
I am a regular channel operator in #martial, an Internet Relay Chat channel on Undernet. Recently, we had a discussion about the pros and cons of teaching beginners advanced applications of kata. When I first started, we learned that a downblock was a downblock. Later, I learned that it could be a strike, an arm break, a take-down, etc. One of the people in the conversation said that it is not a downblock at all. He asked why anyone would block with just the ulna bone. I disagree with this idea because a person should not block with the outside of the arm but with the top of the arm and then use the twisting motion (clockwise with the left hand) to add a deflection type of force (much like what happens when you try to put a piece of paper onto a spinning top). The fold for this block should be with the hand by the opposite ear with the palm to your face. By blocking this way, you are using both bones which makes for a stronger block. What do y'all think?

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#82646 - 07/20/01 03:17 PM Re: Downblocks
Paul T Offline
Member

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 38
Loc: USA
I think that some applications of the block
(Seiken Gedan Barrai) may be different
in a fighting conrtext than in kihon or
Kata. We often do more of a shortened
version of the block, where we release
the hand from being in a seiken, and use
the palm heel instead of the arm for the
blocking area. less things in the blocker
to be injured this way. Hope this is not
too tangental. I used to think the palm
heel version was a more advanced way to do the block, but now teach it to people
very early. Most do not do the neccesary
conditioning of the arm to make it the effective blocking/strking weapon it needs to be if you are going to use the bone(s)
as the strking area.

my $.02

Paul

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#82647 - 08/10/01 06:22 AM Re: Downblocks
Argonis Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/10/01
Posts: 12
Loc: Australia
Hmmm. Interesting point brought up in reference to striking with a torquing motion. This in theory, is what is taught in most martial arts for the execution during a striking technique. The idea of twisting the wrist at the end of the punch. As fars as which is the better block, there isn't an answer. The palm-heel block will provide a more controlable parry or block, the forearm uses a much larger area, therefore permitting some margin for error. As far as the best part of the arm to use, it depends what it's blocking. A normal gate block can be utilized as a strike, to parry and damage the attackers limb if used in a perpendicular line to that of the striking weapon. In this scenario, a smaller surface area should be utilised if the striking weapon is of less or simiar force. If for instance a direct block was used against a powerful roundhouse, your arm is going to suffer more damage, than if you had parried the kick. A palm heel would be more effective in this case, as a well executed parry could off set your opponents balance, and thus give you a distinct advantage.

Cameroni "The Other Pasta" Perry

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#82648 - 08/15/01 10:34 PM Re: Downblocks
omegapoint Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 150
I wish I would have seen this earlier! 99% of the Karate styles out there teach a low-block which comes from the opposite ear or shoulder. The bujutsu styles often teach a "wedge" position low block, that extends into a strike without being rechambered. By wedge I mean that the low-block/strike begins at the opposite wrist and directly to the striking surface. It is positioned almost midline rather than so high exposing the lower body. This keeps your midline protected in case you have to defend another tech.

An example of a low block of this sort can be seen in Naihanchi Shodan, when after making your first elbow strike to the right (w/the left elbow), that arm should immediately transition to the wedge position (left wrist and right wrist cross/rub briefly) and the low-block is made to the left. The area of contact is the distal end of your ulna (outer wrist bone) for the block, and a slight dropping of your weight in the same direction striking the area just above the pelvis and under your last floating rib (lateral abdomen) with a fore/mid-knuckle punch. Very tricky tech and it takes a while to get use to, but this is valid bunkai for that particular block.

Cool thread!!!

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#82649 - 08/16/01 09:10 PM Re: Downblocks
Hachiman Offline
Member

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 65
Loc: Goldsboro, NC, USA
Very interesting, omegapoint. We also protect our midline or centerline with the fold for our blocks but by placing the low hand in front of the groin and the high arm's elbow touches the other arm at the crook of it's elbow. And of course the block can be used as a strike also.

Hachiman

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#82650 - 08/16/01 11:05 PM Re: Downblocks
omegapoint Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 150
Yes, yes... We also make our low-block wedge the way you mentioned. Both ways are much more efficient than the modern low-block seen in most styles. What style do you train in? Have a great weekend!

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#82651 - 10/30/01 03:28 PM Re: Downblocks
judderman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 1400
Loc: UK
The wedge block mentioned sounds very similar to that used in Tae Kwon Do. The one I am used to gedan beri, uses torque.

It takes a long time to get this right, and many a bruised forearm ensues.

As for the applications of this technique, I would say that it is a very versatile one. However its uses require subtle adaptation to work effectively. Without these adaptations, this technique is restricted to kihon or bunki from kata.

my 0.02

Budo.

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#82652 - 11/28/02 09:27 PM Re: Downblocks
white belt Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 6
Loc: Indiana, USA
The chambering of the arms is the real block/defense. The swing downward is discarding the dislocated leg. Meeting the kick without turning the body means absorbing a large amount of force. The force is meant to be ridden and deflected around the centerline. The ankle and/or knee of the kicking leg is then rendered apart. This is how physics can be applied to match an opponents superior strength.

white belt

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#82653 - 11/29/02 08:38 AM Re: Downblocks
white belt Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 6
Loc: Indiana, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hachiman:
I am a regular channel operator in #martial, an Internet Relay Chat channel on Undernet. Recently, we had a discussion about the pros and cons of teaching beginners advanced applications of kata. When I first started, we learned that a downblock was a downblock. Later, I learned that it could be a strike, an arm break, a take-down, etc. One of the people in the conversation said that it is not a downblock at all. He asked why anyone would block with just the ulna bone. I disagree with this idea because a person should not block with the outside of the arm but with the top of the arm and then use the twisting motion (clockwise with the left hand) to add a deflection type of force (much like what happens when you try to put a piece of paper onto a spinning top). The fold for this block should be with the hand by the opposite ear with the palm to your face. By blocking this way, you are using both bones which makes for a stronger block. What do y'all think?[/QUOTE]

Ever consider that the actual block is the chambering / upswing with the radius? This scooping motion is a real time reaction to the imposed kick / threat. Riding the legs trajectory instead of meeting it head on, you then feed the kicks energy abit by turning away and injure the attackers groin muscles by spreading him at the hips while he is on one leg and helpless to resist. Reply if you are interested in what happens to the attacker (victim) on the downstroke. It is a fight ender and the kicker may never walk w/o assistance ever again.

white belt

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#82654 - 11/30/02 05:50 PM Re: Downblocks
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Right. This is how I see it, as a block;

guarding hand parries opponent's punch, blocking hand pushes it way and controls it,

guarding hand strikes either outside or inside of lower leg on nerves about 4-6 inches above ankle, blocking hand either strikes again or scoops leg ut of the way, ready to strike, kick or takedown.

The strike to the nerves on the lower leg is very painful when done with inside of the wrist (further down than the part of the hand used ina ridge hand) or with a chicken head strike.

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