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#81649 - 07/30/01 08:52 PM The Ballistic Bounce
Brewer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 468
Loc: Arizona,U.S.
Hello,
How many of you out there still utilize this type of stretch?Have been injured by it or never had any trouble with it?
Your Brother in the Arts

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#81650 - 08/02/01 12:01 PM Re: The Ballistic Bounce
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
Hi Brewer.
I am in fact a great fan and advocate of ballistic stretching - unfashionable i know but there we go. I have been ballistic stretching for many years and ive never suffered any ill effects from it. Indeed my ability to kick high from cold is very much thanks to ballistic stretching. I feel that too many students are put in a postition where they are taken through a standard warm up of passive stretching at the start of a class and then thrown into a dynamic kicking drill - whats the point. Ballistic stretching has put me in a position to kick properly from cold or be warmed up and ready to go with just a few balistic movements at the start of training. Now im not knocking passive or passive active stretching but i certainly must take issue with those who denounce ballistic stretching out of hand.
Regs and good training.


[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 08-02-2001).]

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#81651 - 08/03/01 02:14 PM Re: The Ballistic Bounce
Brewer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 468
Loc: Arizona,U.S.
Mr. Vigerous,
That's great! I'm glad to hear your point of view in regards to this subject.I myself have never had any trouble with it.I began using it, when I first began training and was only introduced to the other types of stretching throughout the years.Just about every school or style that I have had the oppurtunity to observe during their stretching, have utilized the Ballistic bounce.I don't know of any study or test that has proven this type of stretch to be the number one cause of injury.But I have read and heard often enough that this one is to be considered (taboo). Where do these people get their information to back up such statemants.If I can get enough replies on this post maybe we can figure out if it's just a hoax concerning this stretch and put the bad information floating around to rest. [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Your Brother in the Arts

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#81652 - 08/27/01 03:44 PM Re: The Ballistic Bounce
Shodan2001 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/27/01
Posts: 6
Loc: Houston, TX
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brewer:
Hello,
How many of you out there still utilize this type of stretch?Have been injured by it or never had any trouble with it?
Your Brother in the Arts
[/QUOTE]

please escuse my ignorance, but, what exactly is the "ballistic bounce"? Is it where, when you get into a stretching you bounce?
G

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#81653 - 08/28/01 03:17 PM Re: The Ballistic Bounce
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
The best way that i can describe ballistic stretching, would be for example to hold onto a bar in front of you with, for the sake of arguement, the right leg in front of the left. From here swing the right leg up into a side kick position using momentum generated by the relevant muscles. At the peak of the swing allow the leg to return before powering it up again. Similarly an example would be to swing the leg up to the front as if performing an axe kick, while trying to kick yourself in the face with your shin - then allowing the kick to ground before throwing it up again. Sorry for the long winded answer - just trying to provide a visual example.

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#81654 - 09/06/01 04:30 PM Re: The Ballistic Bounce
Brewer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 468
Loc: Arizona,U.S.
Hello Shodan 2001,
Anothe rway of describing the ballistic bounce is to say you put yourself into a position where you are going to touch your toes and lean forward.You can not reach your toes and so you start a bouncing motion to help you stretch the muscles and little by little you may add to the amount of the bounch to get a greater effect.This is just another way of looking at it,hoping it might help you to understand it better.Take Care.
Your Brother in the Arts

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#81655 - 09/06/01 10:16 PM Re: The Ballistic Bounce
Nick B Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/01
Posts: 46
Loc: Ajax , Ontario , Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrVigerous:
The best way that i can describe ballistic stretching, would be for example to hold onto a bar in front of you with, for the sake of arguement, the right leg in front of the left. From here swing the right leg up into a side kick position using momentum generated by the relevant muscles. At the peak of the swing allow the leg to return before powering it up again. Similarly an example would be to swing the leg up to the front as if performing an axe kick, while trying to kick yourself in the face with your shin - then allowing the kick to ground before throwing it up again. Sorry for the long winded answer - just trying to provide a visual example.[/QUOTE]

I think you are describing Dynamic stretching , Isn't balistic bouncing when you go into a stretch and just bounce up and down a little while in the stretch ?

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#81656 - 09/09/01 04:59 PM Re: The Ballistic Bounce
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
I think its just an issue over words. The ballistic bounce would be as you and Brewer have described it, ie bouncing to work the stretch. To my mind your still applying a vigerous motion to the relevant muscle groups that are then retarded sharply. Effectivly forcing the muscle to stretch. I've always known this as a "ballistic" stretch. If i'm totaly wrong here perhaps someone could set me straight.
Regds and good training.

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#81657 - 09/09/01 08:23 PM Re: The Ballistic Bounce
Nick B Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/01
Posts: 46
Loc: Ajax , Ontario , Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrVigerous:
I think its just an issue over words. The ballistic bounce would be as you and Brewer have described it, ie bouncing to work the stretch. To my mind your still applying a vigerous motion to the relevant muscle groups that are then retarded sharply. Effectivly forcing the muscle to stretch. I've always known this as a "ballistic" stretch. If i'm totaly wrong here perhaps someone could set me straight.
Regds and good training.
[/QUOTE]


Hi Mr Vig,
you make a good point although the difference I see in the two are that with dynamic stretching you are not putting any added stress from your body weight onto the muscles you are working. I had not heard of the term Dynamic stretching until recently and guess where I learnt of it ? Yes of course from an article on this web site !!
Have a good day mate.
Cheers
Nick B

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#81658 - 02/25/02 06:59 PM Re: The Ballistic Bounce
tedpastrick Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 4
Loc: los angeles, CA
Several authors, Pavel Tsatsouline and Thomas Kurz being the most recent to my knowledge, advocate "isometric" stretching as the most effective way to stretch. The approach takes the nervous system, rather than the soft tissue system (muscles, tendons, fascia), as the point of reference for the techniques. The physiological mechanism behind it all is, according to these authors, the manipulation of the regulatory function of the nervous system as it acts upon the muscle. Muscles are "wired" to the nervous system in several ways. One is conscious. You "want to" pick up the weight and you proceed to do so. The "wanting to" is an expression of the nervous system (the thought precedes the action)which sends the signal to the muscle in response to the "wanting to". Stretching, however, is best accomplished by addressing the "unconscious" or "relex" component in the nervous/muscle systems. We have reflexive responses that do not call upon our consciousness because that would take too much time (e.g. you put your hand on the hot stove and the reflex kicks in instantly, even before you realize what's happening, to spare yourself from being burned). The muscles we want to stretch are wired to both the conscious and the reflex systems. The reflexes have a built-in "fuse box" that prevents the muscle from being stretched too far too fast. This is a good thing, as it prevents the muscle from stretching so much that it actually rips apart. Tsatouline and others hold that by placing tension on the muscle without having the muscle contract(isometric means no change ("iso) in the length (metric) of the muscle but a significant change in its tension) in a very methodical manner and then releasing that tension we can re-set the "fuse boxes" to allow for a new and longer resting length. Their techniques target the nervous system controls of the muscle rather than the (limited) capacity of the soft tissue to be stretched like taffy. The essence of the technique is the "contract-relax" feedback loop. To reset the muscle to a new and longer resting length you begin by taking the muscle to its present limit (which you are unhappy with and want to improve). Then you consciously and forcibly contract that muscle for five seconds. Then you relax and "sink" deeper into the stretch. You repeat this until you can't sink any more, ease up entirely, and then start the whole process all over again. The purpose of the forcible contraction is to "short circuit" the reflex circuit in the muscle. By going slow, but putting substantial tension on the muscle during the contraction, the muscle receives the signal from the nervous system that its okay to lengthen a little bit. The fear response of the nervous system and muscle, which would ordinarily dictate that the muscle stay at the "safe" length, is side-stepped in this process. Slowly the nervous system adapts to the new information and the muscle itself takes on a new and longer resting length. I've used this technique and find it much more effective than the isotonic (iso, as above, means "same"; tonic, means "tension." Thus, the Yoga-type stretch does not attempt to increase tension but rather length in the muscle, which is ironic, since you get greater increases in the resting length of a muscle by doing non-isotonic techniques) techniques that are used in Yoga. It has the added benefit of requiring you to pay attention when stretching and thus can be very "meditative" in this regard. The contract-relax cycle also reinforces the direct experience of Yin (contraction) and Yang (expansion) and can offer another tool to use in your practice of calm awareness.

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