Then by your own definition (ie, lack of specific dates, origins or unified curriculum), ninjitsu does not qualify as a ryu. That means that pretty much anyone can run around, claiming to teach some "traditional" or "authentic" school of it. Any Japanese instructor, or someone who claims to have been taught by one, is not automatically credible. I'm not saying that it never existed, and that they existed primarily as assassins. However, there is simply no lack of evidence that anyone is teaching "the real thing." I think that after training in and researching the various koryu for 30 years, while living in Japanese society, Mr. Skoss is a more accurate authority than Americanized unsubstantiated mythos.

[This message has been edited by Ayotl (edited 07-14-2004).]

There was a special on the Discovery channel not long ago that did a special on Ninjitsu, did anyone watch the program? There are real Ninjitsu Dojo's out there that practice the art to keep it alive.

What i was saying was the 9 ryu that comprise the Bujinkan are the original arts. Bujinkan is the combination of the 9 ryu. Not all of the 9 ryu were ninpo but the Bujinkan is just a combination of the ninpo and various arts. The 9 ryu can be traced back. Masaki Hatsumi simply gave them all one name. He will be the first to tell you the training does differ a bit from the past but it is still authentic ninjutsu. Mr. Koss didn't say there was NO ninjutsu being taught, but that there are only a handful. Here is a link to a discussion on that very Koss article (from Koryu.com) on budoseek.
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4672

If you scroll down to the post with the lineage you can see the 28 sole of Kukishinden Ryû Happo Bikenjutsu ending at Hatsumi. Dale Seago also gives some what of a "reason" for some of the ryu not being listed as a koryu art. Like he said there are at least two koryu within the Bujinkan, Kukishin and Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

I did see the Discovery episode on ninjutsu. It was actually a little disappointing. Steve Hayes was at one time Hatsumi's top student. He has since gone off to teach his own style, still based very much in Bujinkan, and from what i understand is still in good standing with Hatsumi.

i saw in history channel that ninjas were rebel samurais working as spies or asassins.
thats why there are is called ninjitsu of ju-jitsu that samurais used?
and that why they were so good at killing
:P

[This message has been edited by hansito (edited 07-17-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hansito:
i saw in history channel that ninjas were rebel samurais working as spies or asassins.
thats why there are is called ninjitsu of ju-jitsu that samurais used?
and that why they were so good at killing
:P

[This message has been edited by hansito (edited 07-17-2004).][/QUOTE]

I think you misunderstood the show. They were not "rebel samurai". Ninjutsu is not jujutsu. Some of the techniques are similar as are some of the ground fighting concepts. Unlike jujutsu, ninjutsu incorporates more ranges of fighting, both empty hand and weapons. Just like the samurai studied several different systems to comprise there way of fighting, so did the ninja. Not saying ninjutsu is better, just different. The "ninja" were spies and assassins to some extent. But they were also employed by some daimyo to protect against attack. They were well suited for this because of there ability to blend in and not be recognized by the enemy as a guard of any kind.

The closes thing to a "rebel samurai" were ronin. They were samurai who for what ever reason didn't have a lord to serve. During the Meiji restoration samurai who left their domain illegally to fight in the Loyalist movement(rebels) were also called ronin.

That is how i would like to think of the ninja.