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#75007 - 07/11/04 09:24 PM Ninjutsu training
Anonymous
Unregistered


Is there a certain workout or perhaps eating pattern that I could go on to improve flexibility for ukemi(rolls),stamina,agility,and finesse for a future ninjustsu class?

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#75008 - 07/11/04 10:08 PM Re: Ninjutsu training
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
All of those whill improve with training. The best thing to do is just start training. Go to class, if the instructor has anything in particular he wants you to do he will tell you. Your class time is the "certain workout" you need.

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#75009 - 07/12/04 10:40 AM Re: Ninjutsu training
Anonymous
Unregistered


No such thing as ninjutsu anymore. A little clarification for all the 'ninjas': ninpo, as it was originally called, was not a martial art per se. Ninjas were basically dishonorable assassins, and were considered to be sub-human, the lowest of the low. No one teaches (authentic)ninjutsu in this country.

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#75010 - 07/12/04 07:00 PM Re: Ninjutsu training
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
You obviously know what you are talking about. The 9 ryu of the Bujinkan were made up from thin air.

Get real. Ninja as you described them DID NOT EXIST. They are embellishments made up for Hollywood. Real ninjutsu can still be found all over the world. Tell Massaki Hatsumi his ninjutsu isn't real.

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#75011 - 07/13/04 01:55 AM Re: Ninjutsu training
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ninjas Were Peasants Who Were Once Ruled By The Samurai.. That's Why In The "Last Samurai" Movie There Was A Scene Were Ninjas Tried To Take Revenge..

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#75012 - 07/13/04 10:02 AM Re: Ninjutsu training
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Ninja were not "ruled" by the samurai. Since they were able to blend in with everyday life as "normal" people, they were hired by many to guard there estates while posing as gardeners and servants. Ninjutsu practitioners were less well off than the samurai, but not all were peasants. The Last Samurai was only a movie and had little relation to history. Even in the movie they were not taking "revenge". They were hired to kill Katsumoto, there is a difference.

The simple fact is ninjutsu is still practiced today all over the world. The problem is guys like Dux, Tew and Ashida Kim that are passing off there system as ninjutsu when it's not. There systems appeal to people who don't know anything about ninjutsu. The same people who believe what they see in movies is real.

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#75013 - 07/13/04 06:43 PM Re: Ninjutsu training
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry, but your information must be wrong because im taking traditional style ninjustsu from someone who took direct lessons in Japan for Hatsumi, so i believe your information is wrong. As far as the history of ninja i have no idea about them, but i believe they were not heartless assasins with no honor. Ninja were probably normal warriors just like samurai only with differnet style of combat, and remember samurai were used for assasnation attempts also and various other tasks such as gurading villaged or familys(Kurosawa's Seven Samurai). But if anyone knows information about the true past of ninja as far as their code of honor, origin,etc please post because i would love to know more about the warriors of which style i am going to be practicing, thank you.

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#75014 - 07/14/04 01:24 AM Re: Ninjutsu training
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Ninjutsupupil,

Are you going to be training at the Detroit Bujinkan dojo run by Yost Fulton? If so, good for you. He's ranked up there in the nosebleed section. He will be able to give you all the history you will need. If this isn't the same dojo, you could always e-mail him or ask your instructor. Your instructor should in most cases be the first to talk with about the system you are in. If things don't sound right or they tend to not know the answers, do some research.

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#75015 - 07/14/04 10:07 AM Re: Ninjutsu training
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is an excerpt from an article by Mr. Meik Skoss. Mr. Skoss is one of the foremost authorities on Japanese koryu in this country, and lived and studied in Japan for over 30 years. Information just doesn't get any more credible than this, folks. Please READ this, not just post some half-assed response about whoever it is you are studying under. When it comes to koryu, this guy is THE authority in the States.

"An aside is in order: recently, I've taken a considerable amount of heat for my rather dismissive attitude toward ninpo, or ninjutsu, ever since this article was first published. Well enough, but I want to make this clear: I don't think ninjutsu is a "bad" art, nor do I think people who study it are "bad" people. I am less than fully impressed with the ninjacompoops, as I call them, for a number of reasons. First of all, as one aspect of the martial arts, the equivalent, more or less, of military intelligence, it is certainly a legitimate area of study. The problem is, except for a handful of koryu, where it's a part of a larger comprehensive curriculum, ninjutsu just doesn't exist anymore. Certainly not as an independent ryu-ha. What is commonly taught as ninjutsu, in Japan and elsewhere, is nothing more than a rather disparate collection of unarmed and weapons arts. This, according to the people with whom I've spoken (people who are either professors of martial studies at Tsukuba University, the International Budo University, and Chukyo University, or headmasters and senior exponents in the classical martial arts), is something that's not very clearly understood by the general public. That's not to say these arts are not technically valid or that they don't have historical provenance. What they aren't, however, is the art of ninjutsu per se. One could saddle a cow, but I doubt it would serve you well if you rode it in a steeplechase. Same thing here.

Secondly, when I used the term "sub-human" in a previous version of this article in referring to people doing ninjutsu, I did so in light of the historical Japanese attitude toward the group of people who comprised the "ninja." The word used to refer them was hinin (outcast or criminal, with a strong implication of "sub-human"). The ninja were not viewed as esoteric Robin Hoods who righted the wrongs of the rich and protected the poor. They were viewed as little more than opportunistic scum who couldn't be trusted as far as you could throw them. The common opinion ("the only good ninja is a dead ninja") was a bit strong for our modern sensibilities, maybe, but that was the way bushi felt about it. I don't think modern exponents are sub-human. Silly, perhaps. Sub-human, no."


[This message has been edited by Ayotl (edited 07-14-2004).]

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#75016 - 07/14/04 10:54 AM Re: Ninjutsu training
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The problem is, except for a handful of koryu, where it's a part of a larger comprehensive curriculum, ninjutsu just doesn't exist anymore.

The Bujinkan is a legitimate ninjutsu system. The Genbukan and Jinenkan were spawned from the Bujinkan. The confusion comes, for most, in the fact that these three names only came about in the last few decades. The Bujinkan is comprised of 9 different ryuha, some more easy to trace than others. Because not all ryuha within the Bujinkan can be traced back past a certain point there have been issues with listing it as a koryu.

As for peoples views of ninja in Japan. A good portion of the people who practiced ninjutsu were not known by the general public. They were surrounded by mystery and actually promoted the misconceptions about themselves. The more people misunderstood them and feared them the more efficient they could be. They were hired by some lords to protect them. They posed as everyday servants in order to have the element of surprise in case of an attack. Some were more well off than others. Some were very poor. The fact is a lot of the myths and legends about the ninja are just that, myth and legend. There is no ninja magic. There is a scientific explanation to everything they do.

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#75017 - 07/14/04 11:56 AM Re: Ninjutsu training
Anonymous
Unregistered


Then by your own definition (ie, lack of specific dates, origins or unified curriculum), ninjitsu does not qualify as a ryu. That means that pretty much anyone can run around, claiming to teach some "traditional" or "authentic" school of it. Any Japanese instructor, or someone who claims to have been taught by one, is not automatically credible. I'm not saying that it never existed, and that they existed primarily as assassins. However, there is simply no lack of evidence that anyone is teaching "the real thing." I think that after training in and researching the various koryu for 30 years, while living in Japanese society, Mr. Skoss is a more accurate authority than Americanized unsubstantiated mythos.

[This message has been edited by Ayotl (edited 07-14-2004).]

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#75018 - 07/14/04 12:38 PM Re: Ninjutsu training
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
There was a special on the Discovery channel not long ago that did a special on Ninjitsu, did anyone watch the program? There are real Ninjitsu Dojo's out there that practice the art to keep it alive.

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#75019 - 07/14/04 05:47 PM Re: Ninjutsu training
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
What i was saying was the 9 ryu that comprise the Bujinkan are the original arts. Bujinkan is the combination of the 9 ryu. Not all of the 9 ryu were ninpo but the Bujinkan is just a combination of the ninpo and various arts. The 9 ryu can be traced back. Masaki Hatsumi simply gave them all one name. He will be the first to tell you the training does differ a bit from the past but it is still authentic ninjutsu. Mr. Koss didn't say there was NO ninjutsu being taught, but that there are only a handful. Here is a link to a discussion on that very Koss article (from Koryu.com) on budoseek.
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4672

If you scroll down to the post with the lineage you can see the 28 sole of Kukishinden Ryű Happo Bikenjutsu ending at Hatsumi. Dale Seago also gives some what of a "reason" for some of the ryu not being listed as a koryu art. Like he said there are at least two koryu within the Bujinkan, Kukishin and Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

I did see the Discovery episode on ninjutsu. It was actually a little disappointing. Steve Hayes was at one time Hatsumi's top student. He has since gone off to teach his own style, still based very much in Bujinkan, and from what i understand is still in good standing with Hatsumi.

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#75020 - 07/17/04 08:12 AM Re: Ninjutsu training
Anonymous
Unregistered


i saw in history channel that ninjas were rebel samurais working as spies or asassins.
thats why there are is called ninjitsu of ju-jitsu that samurais used?
and that why they were so good at killing
:P

[This message has been edited by hansito (edited 07-17-2004).]

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#75021 - 07/17/04 03:10 PM Re: Ninjutsu training
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hansito:
i saw in history channel that ninjas were rebel samurais working as spies or asassins.
thats why there are is called ninjitsu of ju-jitsu that samurais used?
and that why they were so good at killing
:P

[This message has been edited by hansito (edited 07-17-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

I think you misunderstood the show. They were not "rebel samurai". Ninjutsu is not jujutsu. Some of the techniques are similar as are some of the ground fighting concepts. Unlike jujutsu, ninjutsu incorporates more ranges of fighting, both empty hand and weapons. Just like the samurai studied several different systems to comprise there way of fighting, so did the ninja. Not saying ninjutsu is better, just different. The "ninja" were spies and assassins to some extent. But they were also employed by some daimyo to protect against attack. They were well suited for this because of there ability to blend in and not be recognized by the enemy as a guard of any kind.

The closes thing to a "rebel samurai" were ronin. They were samurai who for what ever reason didn't have a lord to serve. During the Meiji restoration samurai who left their domain illegally to fight in the Loyalist movement(rebels) were also called ronin.

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#75022 - 07/19/04 11:10 AM Re: Ninjutsu training
Anonymous
Unregistered


That is how i would like to think of the ninja.

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