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#47699 - 12/04/04 09:52 PM Re: Awarness of edge weapons:
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
Edge 1:

The importance of the edge relates to how bad one will get cut. Some edges are fine, as others thick. Awarness of double edges or single edges.

The types of cuts generated by these different edges should be examined. Why?? to understand which parts of the body can be safely used in a denfense situation.

Types of steel control the outcome of how sharp the edge will be. It is a bit harder to determine the exact steel used but also vital.

Stainless blades are harder to sharpen and edge are often not razor sharp. As the chrom increases in the making of stainless the carbon decreases. They quickly loose the their edges.

Knowledge of the blade extends for beyond the block.

Kobun

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#47700 - 12/05/04 01:47 AM Re: Re: Awarness of edge weapons:
Anonymous
Unregistered


loki,

good to see you are developing weapon awareness. few questions and points of my own however,

"Many edge defense courses forget two things.
1) awarness of the edge
2) awarness of the point"

those are the parts that well, cause damage. what edge weapon course doesn't cover the fact that there are parts on the knife that can cause harm?


"Fencing style thrusts are not as accurate"
gotta admit im not a practitioner of fencing so a bit unfamiliar with the exact mechanics of a "fencing thrust" however am practitioner of arnis/kali with a fair bit of knife work from yawarra jujitsu - so am familiar with thrusting - and have 3 tanto knives of my own.

the chisel type point of a tanto is designed to pierce armour with thrusts, and in fact is sold in many places as an armour piercing knife. cold steel for instance shows their "gunsite" blades on their videos as being able to be thrust through a car door, then thrust though again without damage to the blade

do not believe that the point configuration on a knife can seriously detract from the accuracy of a thrust, hawkbill style blades such as the spyderco civilian/harpy etc would be innefective for thrusting - mainly because they are designed as slashing blades not to be thrust

any sharp pointy thing pushed into a soft fleshy body will generally go in

"Versius the Tanto: Pray"

versus any blade - pray, any blade can harm you, you can be killed with a cheap kitchen knife quite easily as well

"The types of cuts generated by these different edges should be examined. Why?? to understand which parts of the body can be safely used in a denfense situation."

there is no safe place to be cut, ill admit that its preferable to get a cut on the hand rather than the throat. thats why we use our hands to deflect an attack and try to avoid contact with our body and a blade at all costs.

no one is going to get stabbed in the stomach and make a sigh of relief when they notice that the knive that has plunged into them is stainless steel,

nor is anyone going to ask their attacker "is that blade made of AUS 8A Steel? - oh good just 440 stainless? lets get it on with then"

good idea to be aware of doublesided blades, more awareness of damage on a reverse stroke, - more argument for not trying to grab the attackers wrist in defence, also allows deliberate use of a reverse edge in a few the techniques in arnis.

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#47701 - 12/05/04 08:12 PM Re: Re: Awarness of edge weapons:
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
Thanks for the response:

Yes in many knife defense courses the EXPERTS forget to mention many tactical information.

The police for example are NOT thought edge awarness,types of points ect...

Knowledge is power- Thus when teaching about the knife it's composition,such as the different types of steel used may help in a defense scenerio.

Knowing how a knife cuts/it's capacities as a weapon become very important.

Example: A Italian stiletto or switch blade.
A poor design may be recongnized by a knowlegable individual. Why is this important?? Because knowing the weakness of this weapon will help me defeat it. Tacticaly this edge weapon is good for many things, yet it does have a poor slashing capability.

A good coat wraped around your arm would do the trick. ( Done it)

As for body parts to use, I use the forearm as a shield. Less arteries/veins to cut,thus I have modifies many of my Karate blocks to ensure that my forearm is facing out. Thus my palm is always facing my body.

Weakness of a Blade: Clip points for example,has NO strength in the tip.

Tanto: Yes the tanto can still deliver a "In line thrust, yet it lacks greater accuracy.

Fencing thrust: Same as # 5 thrust in Kali Using a 1-5 only striking pattern.

Kobun Out

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#47702 - 12/07/04 02:15 AM Re: Re: Awarness of edge weapons:
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes in many knife defense courses the EXPERTS forget to mention many tactical information.

The police for example are NOT thought edge awarness,types of points ect...

loki, doesn't sound like this expert of yours was much of an expert after all, as for police not getting taught much, well im not a police officer, and i definately can't the standards of training for police in all areas of the world - but ill repeat my previous point that most people are aware that the sharp edges and ponts or a knife can hurt people and police are generally taught some blade awareness and defensive skills, even if most of it is devoted to defence using batons or firearms - they are trained to defend themselves

just out of curiousity what was this course you have done? the instructor? or are you talking about a talk by a martial arts teacher? i reccomend doing an accredited edged weapons defence or awareness course, try local security instruction groups and see how much you will learn - it really is amazing.

Fencing thrust: Same as # 5 thrust in Kali Using a 1-5 only striking pattern.

dont know about your 1-5 only strike pattern, there are so many different systems and many different patterns, mine is kombatan arnis and some pektiti tirsia


Tanto: Yes the tanto can still deliver a In line thrust, yet it lacks greater accuracy.

no, it is a tool designed to thrust and puncture - any lack of accuracy is the fault of the user


Weakness of a Blade: Clip points for example,has NO strength in the tip.

they have enough strength to pierce a body, thats all a knife needs.

if you are talking about a carry knife - then by all means pick what you feel is best, me i like tanto's for their durability and ability to punch through most objects

Knowledge is power- Thus when teaching about the knife it's composition,such as the different types of steel used may help in a defense scenerio

no, the knowledge of a steels composition is somthing more for someone to keep in mind when selecting a self defence blade, personally i have never considered the composition of a blade before buying it, - ive picked good designs by dependable companies and left it at that.

very few people have the requirement of say, samurai's or traditional knights, one weapon that needs to last for a lifetime - through repeated battles wars etc

it means nothing to a person getting stabbed what the type of steel is


Example: A Italian stiletto or switch blade.
A poor design may be recongnized by a knowlegable individual. Why is this important?? Because knowing the weakness of this weapon will help me defeat it.

a cheap switchblades weakness is that it may not open reliably, if an agressor had pulled it out and stood around with a stupid look on his face when his knife wouldn't open, good, the odds have worked in your favour (not odds id bet on mind you)

if its opened, then regardless of what it is the attacker has a deadly weapon deployed - and thats all you need to know

Tacticaly this edge weapon is good for many things, yet it does have a poor slashing capability.

itll still damage you a lot, enough to open veins and cause damage - dont get cocky


loki, by all means pursue thoughts of knife defence, but don't try to look for some magical formula where an attackers knife (its steel type, shape, whatever) gives you some kind of advantage.

if a knife is being waved around - are you even going to be able to get a good enough look at it to see wether its a switchblade or not? - decide that its a stilleto - so you can ignore slashing attacks?

the other side of the coin is that it's buried in your stomach or kidneys before you even knew that the guy had a knife - doesn't matter what type of knife it was

[This message has been edited by Meanstreak (edited 12-07-2004).]

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#47703 - 12/07/04 08:18 PM Re: Re: Awarness of edge weapons:
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
Finally a good conversation:
Thank you !!

As I appreaciate your comments.

The knife culture has evolved and many new knives now exist. Some of the ''older" styles of knives have now come back.

Example: The Karambit-Knowlege of it's double edge would make a difference when defending VS it.True??

Knowlege of it's WAVE design for easy opening could save your life. As one usually expects a folder to open a bit slower than a fixed blade.

As an instructor,I have thaugth many seminars on self defense. I have been contracted by soldiers & police. Trust me most police officiers are so busy with paper work caused by drunk drivers, that the time for edge weapon training is often nil.

I asked a high ranking RCMP officer about the Karambit. Never knew about it...

I agree with you,that a monkey with a blade can kill you.

I agree,as the FBI does, that 22 feet is the safe distance from a knife holding criminal. Once breached the criminal can cover those 22 feet quicker than the time it take to unholster a gun.

( We tried it with a police officer )

Edge awarness: Also means knowing where the edge is at all times.(Not just knowing how sharp it is.

As a chef, I have spent 21 years working with cleavers/knives. I have studied their composition, and the basic handling. I can cut/butcher a side of beef with any knife.
Cocky, a bit at times...

I front of a blade- NEVER

What's your views on stances- To change the topic a bit...

Kobun


P.S. Some of the facts taken about,Tanto's tip ect... from Cold Steel themselves.

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#47704 - 12/08/04 03:22 AM Re: Re: Awarness of edge weapons:
Anonymous
Unregistered


The best way i think of to get a better awareness of edged weopons is to simply train using them.

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#47705 - 12/08/04 03:25 AM Re: Re: Awarness of edge weapons:
Anonymous
Unregistered


good to have a good civil chat on the site.

"Example: The Karambit-Knowlege of it's double edge would make a difference when defending VS it.True??"

ive never handled a kerambit - only saw a few pictures of folding kerambits which i think were single edged so im pretty ignorant of that knifes attributes.

"I asked a high ranking RCMP officer about the Karambit. Never knew about it..."

if you showed him one he'd recognise it as a knife, thats all he needs to know

"Edge awarness: Also means knowing where the edge is at all times.(Not just knowing how sharp it is."

personally my preferences for defensive techniques mean treating evrything as a double edge any way - avoiding the blade at all costs - front and back


"Knowlege of it's WAVE design for easy opening could save your life."

as for wave knives ive also never handled one, again just pics on them. there are ,many knives that can be opened very quickly - some with very little practise, some need more expertise.

i cant help but think that knowledge that "X" knife has a wave (other than in choosing for your own carry) is useless, i think that anyone smart enough to utilise a wave opener isnt going to let you see it long enough to identify it as "X", nor are they going to tell you they are carrying it - i dont think this person would even tell you they have a knife. in the case of using it for say intimidation ie mugging, they would deploy the blade first, wether it was a fast opening such as the wave, or somthing slow behind their own back/opened in the pocket etc it will already be open and ready. knowledge of the opening system is now useless - its already opened.


" As one usually expects a folder to open a bit slower than a fixed blade."

well apart from the old pen knives that had that strange little cut out for a fingernail to open two handed, many knives now are made to be opened one handed, granted this will be slower than a fixed blade (a fixed blade is always "open") but with practise can be done quite fast.

"Trust me most police officiers are so busy with paper work caused by drunk drivers, that the time for edge weapon training is often nil."

sad to hear that, unfortunately i believe you, the good point for them is that they have legal backing to be able to carry firerams and batons etc which (if they keep the tueller drill - 21 feet/22 feet rule in mind) hopefully will help them (hopefully)

"What's your views on stances- To change the topic a bit..."

yawarra - mainly right foot forward - come to think of it i have heard it to be like fencing foot work if that helps, uses the right foot to be able to lunge in quickly

kombatan, ambidextrous footwork, mainly 45 degree stepping to the outside of an attacker

pekiti tirsia (which i only know the very basics of) mainly head on attacking - closing distance between fighters, done at very close ranges (toe to toe in fact)mainly thrusts

realise this isnt quite a stance conversation there, apart from emphasis on the live hand theres not much else that isnt very generic in most martial arts stances

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#47706 - 12/08/04 08:56 PM Re: Re: Awarness of edge weapons:
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
Stances: Still I see wide leg stances,and kicks used VS deployed knives.

Some military units still use X blocks to block VS downward stabs.

I use a very simple stance: Combat stance. Similar to a basketball player positioning.(Feet)

From this position I find that the Triangle theories of Kali work well for my body type.

Karambit: Used one at a seminar, and it is impressive. As this mimicks the claw of a tiger, the cutting action also traps the body part targeted (Arm) and drags it to where YOU want to place it.

I prefer the Kukri...

Kobun Out ( Had a long day )

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#435284 - 06/08/12 05:14 AM Re: Re: Awarness of edge weapons: [Re: loki]
nitibabo Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/07/12
Posts: 1
Thanks for sharing the info. Very Useful.

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#435285 - 06/08/12 03:15 PM Re: Re: Awarness of edge weapons: [Re: nitibabo]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
True. But old posts

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