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#125337 - 12/11/04 01:29 PM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think if you are doing something for self defence your wasting your time.

If you need to defend yourself, its already to late and you may as well throw in the towel.

Self defence is a mind set. It puts you into a point of I can not create an opening so I must therefore wait for one to appear.
Here is an old but still true adage.

"The best defence is a good offence".

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#125338 - 12/22/04 06:28 PM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is for NAUMatt, the move you are talikng anout is gedan ate. its a great powerfull move were the attacker is thrusted in the floating rib where you shoulder is the weapon upon inpact....

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#125339 - 12/29/04 06:49 PM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


A martial art is only as effective as the person applying it.

A lot of the responses in this thread demonstrates an incredible lack of understanding that a "training method" is only an approximation of a "realistic situation". In many cases, it is merely a choreographed response to a ritualistic attacking movement.

And the purpose for it is simply for the safety of the participants. If you were you hurt/damage your training partners, how many training partners would you have to train with by the end of the year? (Also, think insurance and law suits here people!!!!).

Despite the ritualistic attack-response, it IS still possible to obtain the full benefit of the training as if it were a real situation.

If in doubt as to the effectiveness of a "soft" martial art - just train with kids.... :-))

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#125340 - 03/31/05 09:31 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by martinnitram:
aikido is very effective for self defense, no question about it.

[/QUOTE]

I've seen some that was and some that wasn't, big fat teachers who get winded doing a simple demo with a young woman white belt, people who try to have a casual conversation in the middle of practice--WHILE throwing and being thrown.

And I've seen the real thing in Japan, when it was hotter in the dojo than the summer outside. No fatties in that dojo.

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#125341 - 03/31/05 09:54 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael:
I have to say that i agree with aikido not being a very good art of self-defence, it does have its own values, but does it work? The confession i got from a relative, a keen aikido trainer was a depressed "nope..".[/QUOTE]

The problem is how distant American (or Western) training tends to be from the original. Morihei Ueshiba talked a lot about ethics, but he and all his students knew a lot about struggling and conflict. They were very strong and physically fit and they were still very close to the samurai culture (Morihei was born about 1885 and the samurai period ended in 1868). So they all had a technical and mental foundation that has NEVER been developed in the west.

With that foundation, talk of ethics had a completely different meaning than it does for someone with NO foundation in samurai technique and attitude. Moreover, instructors who come here from Japan find people who are so tied up in semantics of "ethics and morality" that they want to lecture attackers. And without the technical/mental foundation, that talk is empty. But the instructors have to teach to the market, so they weaken and soften the techniques and there is no resistance in training, so most of what you see here is only aikido in name.

Now, there can be a lot of benefit to dedicated training in non-combative aikido, but smarmy, misplaced self-assurance seems to be a likely by-product of that kind of training.

If you want the real thing, go to Tokyo and enroll in Shioda's hombu school. Even if you don't understand what they're saying you'll get better training than from someone whose words you understand but whose practice misses the point.

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#125342 - 03/31/05 10:15 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
It is precisely because traditional styles have moved away from their martial origins that people feel the need to train in more "real" styles. Aikido is high amongst the culprits for this. So, is aikido, or even martial arts in general, effective for self defence? Probably not.

Budo
[/QUOTE]

But aikido never really changed. It is still what Morihei did. It's just that very few teachers really understand what Morihei did. Don't expect to see real aikido in the US. What they show here is tailored for people who like to talk about moral concepts without ever dirtying their hands with truth.

Actually, it's hard to find the real thing even in Japan now. But real aikido really works.

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#125343 - 03/31/05 11:19 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5846
Loc: USA
Thats something that folks ALMOST ALWAYS overlook.

The role of the teacher in the practice/training.
Everyone wants to talk about how "effective" say Krav Maga is, as if each and every Krav Maga school worldwide was EXACTLY the same in terms of quality.

Or they wish to point to their local aikido school--and then draw vast sweeping, horrifically inaccurate generalizations about ALL aikido (insert he art of your choice here) from it.

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#125344 - 05/04/05 05:16 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense [Re: Jamoni]
Ninjasaurus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 73
i truly believe the mechanics of aikido allow it to be an effective form of self-defense, however, i have often found it hard to prove this to be the case in a non combat situation, where many skeptics like to pick apart the technique's flaws.

First, skeptics say that the uke doesn't struggle or show enough resistance. And even the beginners will say, "I could've blocked that" or "It doesn't hurt, this wouldn't work", but then if you step back and look at the situation this practice is taking place in, you are usually practicing the technique at around 20% of the actual speed the technique is meant to be done on the street, and often times the effectiveness of the technique is determined by the sincerity of the attack.

Aikido realistically cannot be practiced at the same intensity as other martial arts because of the actual power of these techniques. The more effort the attacker puts into an attack, the more brutal the technique's effect has, and I know that i would rather attack at 95% having some control and just be put into an uncomfortable pin rather than at 100% and have an arm bent in the wrong direction and have my face smashed into the mat.

There are no pads or equipment that can lessen the damage of joint manipulation, whereas in striking styles, you can wear head gear and gloves to reduce the damage. All we have is a mat and the uke's preparation, which is why it often seems orchestrated.


My sensei always taught us that we have to practice the techniques in big, methodical, often unrealisticly exaggerated movements so that when we are in a combat situation, our panic won't be able to completely reduce our movements and techniques. Which is one reason some skeptics may say our techniques are not effective in a real situation without knowing this.

Of course an attacker in the street doesn't wind up before his attack or follow through as though hes attempting to punch through your body like in class, but these are done to practice in class aikido techniques, you apply them in a real life self defense situation differently and to the best of your ability, and they may not work perfectly like in class, but they are still effective.

I can say from personal experience that often times in a stale mate during a struggle, I am able to use an aikido or judo principle to gain the advantage, not necessarily a praciticed technique. Also, I would never try any of the more fast moving dangerous techniques because I know the person on a street most likely doesnt know what youre doing like they do in class, and their arm would be broken.

It has been to my surprise that people show more resistance (usually in a poor spirited way) in class than an average attacker or opponent not trained in aikido does on the street.

The person on the street you're fighting doesnt know that when you grab his wrist for example, you intend to move him off balance and place his arm in an uncomfortable position, hence he rarely resists in time to prevent the technique. This is missed by skeptics in the classroom where everything seems predictable and obvious.

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#125345 - 05/04/05 05:33 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense [Re: Ninjasaurus]
Ninjasaurus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 73
I think the main point to be made is that if you actually analyze the techniques of aikido, yes they have true potential of hurting someone and can be used as self defense.

Now of course you cannot perform the techniques exactly as you learned in class on someone who is attacking you on the street. But, you can adapt and apply what you learned in class.

Take this analogy. In english class, you learn the basics of writing an essay such as paragraphs, grammar, punctuation. This can be seen as the basic foot work and movements of aikido.

Then you learn to write certain types of essays, narrative, objective, or argumentative and so on. This can be compared to the different techniques of Aikido such as throws, joint locks, strikes, and so on.

Finally, you use these techniques and tools to write an essay, one might be about your biggest influence, one might be about hamlet, and one might be an argument for a certain policy. This can be compared to the different situations you practice the aikido techniques, such as the uke doing a front strike or side strike or wrist grab and how the nage reacts.

Now, after all this, when you are a journalist on the field for example, will you be asked to write an essay on hamlet again? no, but you will be able to apply the basic techniques you learned to similar situations that are different and you adapt to write the new essays you set out to write. Just like in aikido, will you be faced with the same attacks as you are faced in class? not always, but you will have the tools and basics that you can adapt and apply to any situation, it may not be what you do in class, but it is still aikido being applied effectively.


Edited by Ninjasaurus (05/04/05 05:34 AM)

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#125346 - 05/04/05 09:55 AM Re: Don't think aikido is effective self-defense [Re: Bronx]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
I believe that Aikido is most effective as a means of restraint in some situations that a police officer, bouncer, protection specialist, etc. may get into. Some of the defences that I practiced while taking Aikido were not effective in a situation where the opponent wasn't being cooperative. In my opinion Aikido has some practical applications in self defense but is not a complete method of practical self defense. Some of the techniques would get you hurt on the street. As an example we did this technique wherein a person would grab your wrist from behind and then you would kneel down and pull the attacker over your head. In a real situation or uncooperative attacker the attacker could simply switch to a rear choke hold and over power the defender.
As a reality check Aikido practitioners should get a trusted friend to say okay attack me this way and don't let cooperate with me. See the results of that. A simple tackle would handle most Aikido students.

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