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#436071 - 10/31/13 07:00 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Prizewriter
Quote:
I disagree with Dobbersky that MMA will get watered down. The common issue Karate and MMA have is money. In karate, the big money is in having a large school(s) with lots of students who show up regularly. With MMA attendance is also helpful, but a lot of money can be made producing successful fighters who earn millions of dollars.

I disagree with your reasoning here Prizewriter. The gyms and fighters making the big money are few and far between. Especially out of the states (perhaps?). There are many people who train without ever wanting to go pro or get in the ring. I also wonder how long MMA gyms will be able to justify charging so much to train. If UFC type MMAs popularity has peaked (not sure it has) but also when the current generation decide to teach and open new schools prices might become more competitive.

I agree that MMA will not get watered down in the same way as some traditional MAs have. Here Id compare it to Judo or boxing where any weaknesses that arise (are brought in) are soon exposed by the nature of the training itself.

As with all MA trends, faux MMA schools do pop up. Schools with no experience in say wrestling and ground fighting add MMA to their repertoire as if it were a variation on a punch or kick.

I understand that people have invested a lot in time, money and dedication to training in karate here. I think that some of the arguments sound like those of pre-MMA karate where I remember hearing the argument that went something like If hed studied real karate, hed have hit him and stopped that take-down. Now it sounds like Im mocking, but this was genuine, widespread thinking in TMA.

Matakiant said:
Quote:
Well I think that popularisation of Karate, Japanise Karate evolving to sport and etc is the fault of nearly everything I find [censored] about Karate now.


Dobbersky said:
Quote:
I agree even Kyokushin could be deemed as Sports Karate in a way


I was unaware that there was any argument that kyokushin was anything but sportified karate? Isnt its history built on challenge matches and such? Certainly doesn't seem to have done it too much harm.

Quote:
but where do we go for True Karate.


It would be EXCELLENT if you could put something like a definition of what you think true karate is.

I might give you some options:
a) What old/ancient Karate was
b) A complete fighting system

The evidence suggests you cant have both.

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#436072 - 10/31/13 05:57 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
You could be right aplant,I may overestimate the revenue from competition n MMA that said it still is a revenue stream for some gyms I'm sure. I think a way of measuring how good an MMA school is is how well do it's members do in competition? MMA can be expensive ( as can BJJ). As both systems are relatively young there may be only a small number of quality gyms available. I'm not sure though.

I agree that systems like boxing and Judo remain relatively unsoftened over time. I don't think a combat system gets watered down just because it is popular. Other factors come in to play, such as financial considerations and philosophical shift e.g. The "do" in karate, which seemed to discuss karate as a vehicle for self improvement rather than some pure killing art. Karate history and politics aren't my strong suit though, so this is purely speculative!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436073 - 11/01/13 09:51 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
You could be right aplant,I may overestimate the revenue from competition n MMA that said it still is a revenue stream for some gyms I'm sure. I think a way of measuring how good an MMA school is is how well do it's members do in competition? MMA can be expensive ( as can BJJ). As both systems are relatively young there may be only a small number of quality gyms available. I'm not sure though.

I agree that systems like boxing and Judo remain relatively unsoftened over time. I don't think a combat system gets watered down just because it is popular. Other factors come in to play, such as financial considerations and philosophical shift e.g. The "do" in karate, which seemed to discuss karate as a vehicle for self improvement rather than some pure killing art. Karate history and politics aren't my strong suit though, so this is purely speculative!





I partially agree. The DO could be the reason for its downfall not the issue with Sports Karate.

When I teach and that's maybe why I'm so different is that I teach as per my ethos "Karate for the streets not just for Trophies" SO evebn though I concider myself as Karate DO maybe I'm actually Karate Jutsu. I know my style tends to get pushed off in Traditional Karate Forums etc as they don't appreciate the finer parts of my style when its Kata and basics are modern and actually "created" to be used in street situations etc.


Edited by Dobbersky (11/01/13 09:55 AM)
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#436074 - 11/02/13 11:34 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky

When I teach and that's maybe why I'm so different is that I teach as per my ethos "Karate for the streets not just for Trophies"


Who said those 2 things have to be mutually exclusive? I know plenty of "sports" fighters who could kick ass in a fight outside of a bar or in a car park. In fact I posted a collection of "sports" fighters on YouTube in real life altercations. They all did pretty well.

Ask yourself this: would you really want to get into a street fight with a Kyokushin national champion? Or heck, even a WKF world kumite champion?


Edited by Prizewriter (11/02/13 12:21 PM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436087 - 11/27/13 10:41 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I remember you posting something but I recall it was a BJJ guy and a boxer???

Well I would get in a fight with the WKF world kumite champion if that's all he has done he'd at least break his arm if he hit me! Ehh sarcasm aside yes obviously any training is better than none.... But ''some'' training that isn't all that effective for self defense can create a dangerous delusion in a practitioner that they are trained for something they aren't (if that makes any sense)

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#436089 - 11/28/13 06:12 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky

When I teach and that's maybe why I'm so different is that I teach as per my ethos "Karate for the streets not just for Trophies"


Who said those 2 things have to be mutually exclusive? I know plenty of "sports" fighters who could kick ass in a fight outside of a bar or in a car park. In fact I posted a collection of "sports" fighters on YouTube in real life altercations. They all did pretty well.

Ask yourself this: would you really want to get into a street fight with a Kyokushin national champion? Or heck, even a WKF world kumite champion?


Well as per my ethos "...........not JUST for trophies"

I have no qualms with fighters competing in competitions as long as they are more realistic in context, the Shonbu Sanbon and the Shonbu Nihon are not as realistic, with the one strike one kill ruling, as they should be. the fighters are more focused on pulling the strike back and screaming than they are in actually giving a strike that would IF full contact do some damamge. Kyokushin and Knockdown Karate do compete in many knockdown tournes around the world. But this type of comeptition is one of the best testing grounds apart from the ring or the cage.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436090 - 11/28/13 12:53 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Again though, why is that someone who pulls a strike and screams any less able to defend themselves?

Someone on the forums a few years back posted a news story about a teenage girl from Denver who successfully defended herself from a man who tried to assault her.

There was of course the clips of the BBC reporter who defended himself against someone who was trying to attack him. Videos are still on YouTube.

Both of those incidents involved people who studied "light contact" karate if memory serves. I wonder sometimes if the idea that self defence = full contact training is more to do with machoism than any real understanding of the massive amount of variables that come in to play in self defence situations

A point could be made that arts like Kyokushin and Muay Thai generally employ a rock 'em sock 'em mentality where combatants simply stand toe to toe until one person falls over. The "bouncy bouncy" WKF style of karate or Olympic TKD employ a much more mobile approach to fighting, where a lot of emphasis is also on evasion of blows. What approach offers the best chance of not getting hit?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436091 - 11/29/13 04:52 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Again though, why is that someone who pulls a strike and screams any less able to defend themselves?

Someone on the forums a few years back posted a news story about a teenage girl from Denver who successfully defended herself from a man who tried to assault her.

There was of course the clips of the BBC reporter who defended himself against someone who was trying to attack him. Videos are still on YouTube.

Both of those incidents involved people who studied "light contact" karate if memory serves. I wonder sometimes if the idea that self defence = full contact training is more to do with machoism than any real understanding of the massive amount of variables that come in to play in self defence situations

A point could be made that arts like Kyokushin and Muay Thai generally employ a rock 'em sock 'em mentality where combatants simply stand toe to toe until one person falls over. The "bouncy bouncy" WKF style of karate or Olympic TKD employ a much more mobile approach to fighting, where a lot of emphasis is also on evasion of blows. What approach offers the best chance of not getting hit?



It's an honour to discuss this topic with you Prizewriter.

With regards to what you say, I agree there are some good and effective martial artists on this circuit but very few. most of them are unable to work outside the Dojo, Mat or Ring. If one prcatices "NON-CONTACT" martial arts then how does one "HIT" someoene without breaking one's hand or wrist or ankle etc. At least with Kyokushin, as you refer to us a "Neanderthals of Karate" we use are natural instincts to know how to hit properly without damage to ourselves because we actually "HIT" humans which is differrent from hitting a bag.
We may "slog it out" on the Mat and punch and Kick till someone drops but we do practice Sabaki and kuzushi in the Dojo and in Ashihara and Enshin we do apply our Kata properly if you remember Brad (Butterfly). Also I've never heard of a "KYOKUSHIN black belt being assaulted" or an Ashihara or Enshin or Daito Juku either, but I have heard of WKF etc blackbelts being assaulted etc. And we Neanderthals get tarred with the same brush as we are Karateka too. But if you look at most of the Okinawan styles like Goju Ryu Shorin Ryu Shuri Ryu Uechi Ryu etc they practice Kumite sparing the same way as Kyokushin. Its the event of Japanses Karate and the JKA etc that caused the downfall of Karate wit the bouncy bouncy. TKD olympic style is concidered as the boys game of martial arts around the world and many martial artists from OTHER systems like Jujitsu and MMA concider Karate as the weaker/softer martial arts and we can't change their opinion of that unless we change what people concider as proper kumite.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436093 - 11/29/13 06:57 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Full contact karate practioner beaten badly in prison by a fellow inmate:

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9902

Of course doing full contact karate doesn't make someone Superman. The Royce Gracie fight also shows how badly a full contact karate fighter can be caught out by a grappler too.

I certainly would not describe full contact practioners as "Neanderthals". I would question why they spar they way they spar and how much sense is applied to it vs how much is machoism. I would also question the belief this makes them better than other karate-ka. I may be wrong, but didn't the founder of Ashihara Karate leave Oyama because in part he felt that Kyokushin Karate with rock 'em sock'em style favoured larger, more powerful fighters? Didn't he at least try and introduce more evasion in Kumite?

The question I would also ask is why do you care what other people think? If people are ignorant about what you are doing, that's their problem. I've never considered using martial arts as an affectation to impress people. Just do your own thing and don't worry about what other people think. Whatever pastime you do, there will always be a queue of people who don't understand it. Just spend time with people who enjoy what you enjoy and get what it's all about.

I'm playing devils advocate here I know! Just to keep some discussion going on FA forums. It's a good topic.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436100 - 12/01/13 08:37 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Very interesting thread

For that matter look how far "Tank" Abbott of the old UFC got on being really aggressive, strong and not minding taking hits.

Of course he usually lost to better/ and better trained fighters but he also laid out a long file of other trained fighters prior.
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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