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#436059 - 10/29/13 10:04 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 121
Well I think that popularisation of Karate, Japanise Karate evolving to sport and etc is the fault of nearly everything I find [censored] about Karate now.

but the problem is that ''us'' knockdown styles are following along. My own style now is the same - Kimura Shukokai - used to be real full contact etc now it's just full contact in name because the heads of the organization have a) gotten old b) they want more people.

To me it seems ''Karate'' as a full contact thing is soon to be dead. Because the people that want full contact training don't even consider Karate anymore because the reputation is so crappy in that circle.

So they automatically dismiss it and go to MMA, Muay Thai, kickboxing, BJJ etc

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#436060 - 10/29/13 11:22 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Matakiant]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
Well I think that popularisation of Karate, Japanise Karate evolving to sport and etc is the fault of nearly everything I find [censored] about Karate now.

but the problem is that ''us'' knockdown styles are following along. My own style now is the same - Kimura Shukokai - used to be real full contact etc now it's just full contact in name because the heads of the organization have a) gotten old b) they want more people.

To me it seems ''Karate'' as a full contact thing is soon to be dead. Because the people that want full contact training don't even consider Karate anymore because the reputation is so crappy in that circle.

So they automatically dismiss it and go to MMA, Muay Thai, kickboxing, BJJ etc


Quite true. I tend to agree with you. Because reputations are hard to shake. and UFC is so big now. Many tend to look for an MMA or BJJ gym instead of the local Karate school etc. Machida is putting the face on for Karate but others like George St Pierre etc who are Karate fighters tend to be forgotten that they are karate as its how they are introduced by the announcer
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436061 - 10/29/13 12:37 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I don't think it's fair to classify GSP as purely a "karate fighter". Yes he studied Karate but he also studided Boxing at the same time. In later life he studied MT, BJJ, Wrestling etc... Interestingly he still keeps up his boxing training (he has a specific boxing coach) but he doesn't seem to have a karate coach that he uses in his MMA training. Not to say Karate can't be used in MMA, but when Muay Thai offers a lot of the same skills as full contact Karate but doesn't spend any time on kata etc.... People might still see Muay Thai as a more straighforward art to learn.

As for Machida, isn't his karate background very much the bouncy bouncy "one hit one kill" Karate that you weren't happy about in the first place Ken?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436062 - 10/29/13 01:30 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
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Registered: 03/13/06
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Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter

As for Machida, isn't his karate background very much the bouncy bouncy "one hit one kill" Karate that you weren't happy about in the first place Ken?



Machida is Old School Shotokan the same as BJJ is equivalent to pre-War Judo. They fight continous and train as such. I watched a programme on him and have his Book and he definitely specified that Machida Karate is different to JKA Karate etc.

Kyokushin is a mix of Shotokan/GojuRyu Muay Thai and in some parts Judo. And Ashihara and enshin have advanced from there. We also have Daido Juku which is a far cry from Traditional JKA Karate ashead butts and other techniques are totally usable in competition

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5AvCcLwaJQ
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436063 - 10/29/13 01:58 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
But Kyokushin still spends time teaching people kata etc that Muay Thai does not. Many full contact styles of karate do not allow punches to the head, Muay Thai does. Hence why Muay Thai is more popular in MMA gyms.

I can't comment on Machida, I have seen both him and his brother compete in JKA tournaments though. And certainly as aplant mentioned, I don't know enough about "old school karate" to comment on it.

Back to my original point, if you are interested in MMA why learn full contact karate when Muay Thai takes less time to learn and offers at the very least the same results in terms of combative ability?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436064 - 10/30/13 06:02 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
WHAT is wrong with Kata?????

IF the instructor teaches Kata the way its supposed to be taught with Bunkai and Ohyo etc then the School doesn't need a separated Self Defence programme.

I love Kata I teach kata from basic strikes to using it on the ground "Ne Waza" and this works and the students love the kata study. I even had one student say good jujitsu class tonight, I responded not jujitsu just true Karate.

every style has kata regardless and even MMA has Kata if you put several combos together a kata is created so that's that.

Its the Mcdojos teaching kata for belts and trophies only that is the issue.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436065 - 10/30/13 06:31 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. If you have 2 identical twins who did say, Kyokushin; one studies only Kata/Bunkai for a year, and one only studies Kumite for a year. After a year they have a fight out in the car park... I know who my money would be on.

For pure combative ability I don't see that kata would add all that much useful for an MMA fighter.

I would differentiate between drills in arts like BJJ and Muay Thai and Kata in Karate I've seen. Drills in BJJ and Muay Thai are drilled to then be applied directly in sparring. Kata does not always teach things that can be applied in sparring.

Again, people involved in MMA aren't stupid and many of them have TMA backgrounds in some way shape or form. If full contact Karate or "old school" Karate really was all that and a bag of chips people would be using it in MMA instead of Muay Thai/Boxing. They aren't though.

The first full contact Karate guy who entered the UFC was Minoki Ichihara so far as I am aware. He was a Daido Juku fighter. Here's how he faired against Royce Gracie. At no point does Royce look like he was going to lose this fight:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10006720/minoki_ichihara_vs_royce_gracie/

For people wanting to train in full contact fighting, MMA is a readily available option. I know you're passionate about your Karate Ken, but facts are facts. Full contact Karate is unlikely to produce as well rounded fighters as MMA is. If full contact or "old school" karate could produce well rounded full contact fighters, all the UFC champions would be Karate fighters and nothing else. We know they aren't.

I'm not suggesting Karate is a waste of time, but pining for a romanticised times when the common man quivered in terror at people who did Karate isn't useful or even necessarily accurate. Times have changed, people have more information about what is what and make choices accordingly.



Edited by Prizewriter (10/30/13 08:14 AM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436066 - 10/30/13 07:33 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 121
Another thing I thought about yesterday was what one of my Senseis said once in a discussion.

About our style drifting away from contact etc.

He was saying it was inevitable, that people don't want to learn full contact karate and that if he did things like ''we used to do them'' we would be in a class of 5 students compared to 30.

That made me sad a bit because he himself said he would want to teach full contact but it just isn't financially viable.

I think the older guys have largely given up... And the younger guys are just drifting to different styles where they get what they want without having to go through trying to change something that is full of stubborn mysticism like Karate.

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#436068 - 10/30/13 08:27 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Matakiant]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: Matakiant

He was saying it was inevitable, that people don't want to learn full contact karate and that if he did things like ''we used to do them'' we would be in a class of 5 students compared to 30.


Precisely. From listening to the majority of people in the majority of classes, most people are happy with light or semi contact. Most people in a lot of karate classes aren't trying to "fix" karate because they don't seem to neccesarily think it is broken. Most of the adults I know in Karate classes train because they love what they are doing and/or because they are teaching kids, which I suppose can be rewarding too.


Originally Posted By: Matakiant

I think the older guys have largely given up... And the younger guys are just drifting to different styles where they get what they want without having to go through trying to change something that is full of stubborn mysticism like Karate.


I can understand that and that is a good point Matakiant. After a long time of "hard" karate training the body might understandably want a rest. Or perhaps other reasons have forced older generations to leave karate.

I don't think Karate will change for the following reasons:

1) Most people involved in WKF style Karate don't think it's broken so why fix it.

2) Anyone who doesn't like their Karate class can either quit altogether or train elsewhere, which are far easier choices rather than re-inventing karate to suit a niche audience

3) As Matakiant points out, schools of full contact or deadly "old school" Karate will likely have a negative impact on Karate attendance. A consequentialist argument could be made that this would reduce the availabilty of karate as if schools don't have the numbers they may have to close. In that void stuff like MMA might step in and marginalise Karate even further.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436070 - 10/31/13 05:51 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All, I really appreciate your responses and I do really acknowledge and accept your views. Its something many of us are passionate about and I think that unless they change things within the styles to be more of what is needed, I agree even Kyokushin could be deemed as Sports Karate in a way but where do we go for True Karate. Do we go for Knockdown (that has its weaknesses too) or do we go for Okinawan karate like Shorin Ryu etc (this has kata practice as its heart) but as Prizewriter said Why practice Kata if you can do Muay Thai etc. Well I did Muay Thai for years and One Kata gave me a lot more than all the years of Muay Thai put together.

I think Its 1/2 dozen of one 6 of another.

But I think if the author claims to have spent 20 years in Karate then why, I have studied various styles and I moved on if the style/Instructor wasn't giving me what I was looking for. Yes I know practice Ashihara Karate which practice Jissen Kata not traditional Kata but for me to discard traditional kata is a mistake hence why I personally practice 4 traidtional Kata.

If we add Kung Fu into the mix and they have their forms which are older versions of those found in Karate they must also have the same issues. I know the Kung Fu fighters didn't last 3 minutes in UFC and other cage fighting events so even worse.

If we look Deeper and look at San Shou Kuai Jiao (spelling) this is more akin to Okinawan arts and involves stand up and wrestling and does well in many events including Cage events.

I think that's why Krav Maga, Kappap and Keysi Fighting Method are becoming more popular in attendees as the "quick fix" is what people are looking for these days.

Muay Thai isn't a quick fix, BJJ isn't a quick fix it takes some serious commitment to get any good in these arts just as it is in Karate/KungFu/Jujitsu.

But Saying that IF I wasn't studying/teaching Karate I would be practicing Lancashire Catch Wresting - considered by many to be the most leathal form of wrestling
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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