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#436043 - 10/25/13 07:32 AM It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!!
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
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Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
http://dysfunctionalparrot.com/5-things/karate/

Read the Link and the responses

It angers me that quite a lot of what he said and others who responded to the Blog is true. But its nothing to do wth the "Style" its the way its been taught.

Ole Skool Karate regardless of style was as tough and as hard as it came. It WAS street effective and we did grab and grapple and go to the ground and "wrestle" as well as other waza. But Sports Karate with the Typy Tappy bouncy bouncy scream and shout stuff with this "one strike one kill" theory that just doesn't work!!!! It was proved in the early UFC matches that the "pure" karateka was useless against a grappler because they refused to acknowledge ne waza etc due to the incite of Sports Karate. I blame YOU for what the world thinks about Karate, unfortunately We Knockdown are tarnished with the same brush as you guys.

I hate it when people say "oh Karate doesn't work" Jujitsu is much better and why because the only experience they have is Sport Karate and JKA JKF and the other "modern Orgs" where Semi and non contact is the trend.

But are you going to change anything about it......... No you're not, because you still believe your stuff is brilliant because you got a wall of trophies in your McDojo.

I don't like it at all. YOU ALL need to sort out the organisations by telling them you want Karate to be more effective or vote with you Membership by leaving and joining an Orgnaisation that does Want Karate to be what it used to be.

Johnny's mother has won, she wanted Johnny to be a 10 year old 3rd Dan but without getting a bruise or having to fight for real against other black belts etc. Its become a product to make profit from not an art which is taught to few who can survive the training.

MMA is very popular and they do hit and they hit hard and they grapple and everything else that is not allowed in Karate. stop being pretend black belts and do something to change what the world thinks of Karate

OSU
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436044 - 10/25/13 07:56 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
A few points Ken:

Why would people "fix" karate when MMA is so readily available now? If people want hard training, trying to re-invent the wheel in a Karate class would be much harder work that going "Screw this, lets go do MMA".

Second point would be that maybe there are a lot of people in Karate who like the JKF way of doing things. I've seen some serious injuries in Judo tournaments and with the MMA folks I've trained with. Trainined in hard, full contact systems takes a toll on people. Training in a light-contact system might be less likely to induce injuries. Some people might prefer that.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436045 - 10/25/13 10:26 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
A few points Ken:

Why would people "fix" karate when MMA is so readily available now? If people want hard training, trying to re-invent the wheel in a Karate class would be much harder work that going "Screw this, lets go do MMA".

Second point would be that maybe there are a lot of people in Karate who like the JKF way of doing things. I've seen some serious injuries in Judo tournaments and with the MMA folks I've trained with. Trainined in hard, full contact systems takes a toll on people. Training in a light-contact system might be less likely to induce injuries. Some people might prefer that.


Understood, but Karate is being wasted with the instruction its receiving at present, It's becoming akin to WTF where its nothing more than an Olympic sport which has no workable syllabus outside the competition arena.

I think MMA is just a Jujitsu/Muay Thai mix which was a fad but has started to take hold, but again I can see this having the same happening to it; when Johnny's mother gets involverd
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436046 - 10/25/13 12:03 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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Maybe, but then again boxing has existed for the last few centuries and has always been full contact. Ditto Judo. Same with Muay Thai. MMA may remain the way it is for a very long time.

As for Dysfunctional Parrot (the blog author) the author simply found there were far better ways to spend his time and money rather than doing karate. He found better ways to stay in shape and didn't feel Karate was that effective for self defense. Karate also took up far too much time, time away from his family. I can't blame him for quitting Karate. If I'm being honest, in his position, I would do the same probably.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436048 - 10/26/13 03:54 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Dobbersky Offline
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Prizewriter

agree with the first point but totally disagree with the second point. you use the umbrella word of Karate and that is the issue, let's change the word to Kung Fu, but this includes Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do or Jujitsu and this includes ALL styles of Judo and Jujitsu and MMA. do you see my point.

He's trained at McDojo's so I have to be labelled the same because the average person can not differentiate between styles etc.

I refuse to be associated with a McDojo that teaches below standard martial arts because the author has an opinion which in many cases isn't supported with any real evidence.

I had a bad experience with some American tourists in the UK, so am I perfectly enpowered to write All Americans are Arrogant etc. I know and you know that this is not the case, but it highlights my points

I still feel that we knockdown and Okinawan Karate ka need to unattach ourselves from the Mcdojos of the world some how
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436053 - 10/26/13 09:40 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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He mentions in another article he trained in Karate for over 20 years, and trained with different clubs and within different organisations. He also seems like an intelligent person. He also trained in TKD. I for one can't say whether every single school he went to was a McDojo. He mentions in one school they extensively used a makiwara, which doesn't seem to be something they use in a lot of WKF style classes. For all we know he could well have studied full contact karate and okinawan karate at some point.

Others made the point on his blog that he wasn't training at "the right school", but he maintained that after more than 20 years of karate, karate was simply too time consuming and offered little benefit. I don't think he would've changed his mind even if he went o an okinawan karate school.

And I have to agree with Dysfuctional Parrot's point that karate isn't the best way to keep in shape. Sure, if you aren't active karate is better than nothing, but nowhere nearly the best exercise for stay healthy surely. Even knockdown karate, with severe blows to the head and large potential for joint damage (Mas Oyama had crippling arthritis from a relatively young age) to the possible dubious effects of old school Goju okinawan karate on blood pressure.

One final point: After 20 plus years of karate, and probably having spent a massive amount of his time and money with karate, I certainly don't think he owed karate anything. It took a lot from him and he felt he got little back. Why should he go out of his way to change karate and potentially, from his point of view, waste more time. I know you're passionate about karate Ken, but regardless of style some people who train in karate will have a negative opinion on it. That's life.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436055 - 10/28/13 09:57 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
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Posts: 5811
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Clearly the guy had a poor experience with his school/s.

Not an uncommon outcome these days......sadly enough.

But I still don't understand why people routinely mistake THIER personal experience for EVERYONES personal experience. Then they draw blanket conclusions for what are fairly subjective and individual events and outcomes.

In terms of MMA--IMO its the same set of problems from a different angle. How many people do you know that are willing to put up with the rigors of full MMA training?




Edited by cxt (10/28/13 09:58 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#436056 - 10/28/13 10:17 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
In the blog the author describes things the several things that will happen if you leave (or in this case ‘diss’) karate:

1) Accused of having no honour:
Quote:
But are you going to change anything about it......... No you're not, because you still believe your stuff is brilliant because you got a wall of trophies in your McDojo.

I don't like it at all. YOU ALL need to sort out the organisations by telling them you want Karate to be more effective


2) Accused of having a bad sensei:
Quote:
its the way its been taught

Quote:
Karate is being wasted with the instruction its receiving at present


3) Accused on inferior style:
Quote:
McDojo's so I have to be labelled the same because the average person can not differentiate between styles

Quote:
I hate it when people say "oh Karate doesn't work" Jujitsu is much better and why because the only experience they have is Sport Karate and JKA JKF and the other "modern Orgs" where Semi and non contact is the trend.

Quote:
Karate is being wasted …It's becoming akin to WTF


4) Accused of McDojo
Quote:
He's trained at McDojo's so…


Dobbersky, apologies if this is over critical of your post. This is a topic I find interesting and an area where my opinion has shifted over the years. A few more points I’ll pick up.

Quote:
McDojo that teaches below standard martial arts


The fact of the matter is that there are NO standards.
Another MAist might walk in on any of our training and call it substandard.

You wrote:
Quote:
author has an opinion which in many cases isn't supported with any real evidence.


I actually think that the author makes a good argument, admittedly his evidence is mostly from personal experience so is limited.

I would also point out that claims you make have similarly little evidence. One claim that I never really found strong evidence for is similar to your:

Quote:
Ole Skool Karate regardless of style was as tough and as hard as it came. It WAS street effective and we did grab and grapple and go to the ground and "wrestle" as well as other waza


Prizewriter:

Quote:
Why would people "fix" karate when MMA is so readily available now? If people want hard training, trying to re-invent the wheel in a Karate class would be much harder work that going "Screw this, lets go do MMA".


Very interesting point. Worthy of a thread in itself. I think this has been a big trend in the last 10-12 years. A sort of ‘plug the wrestling/ground fighting hole’ karate/tkd/kickboxing.

I understand the thinking, but not sure if it is a best way forward? Interesting.

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#436057 - 10/28/13 05:09 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: cxt]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: cxt
Clearly the guy had a poor experience with his school/s.

Not an uncommon outcome these days......sadly enough.

But I still don't understand why people routinely mistake THIER personal experience for EVERYONES personal experience. Then they draw blanket conclusions for what are fairly subjective and individual events and outcomes.

In terms of MMA--IMO its the same set of problems from a different angle. How many people do you know that are willing to put up with the rigors of full MMA training?




Exactly!! Hence why WKF style karate is so popular: it retains a combative element without being overly brutal. I suspect a lot of people rather like this, hence why the WKF is the largest karate governing body and recognised by the IOC. They can fight within certain limits but still get up and go to work on Monday. To quote a song " The public gets what the public wants". Supply and demand. There are clearly a lot of people who like WKF style karate, otherwise it wouldn't be so popular.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436058 - 10/28/13 05:23 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: aplant]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: aplant


Prizewriter:

Quote:
Why would people "fix" karate when MMA is so readily available now? If people want hard training, trying to re-invent the wheel in a Karate class would be much harder work that going "Screw this, lets go do MMA".


Very interesting point. Worthy of a thread in itself. I think this has been a big trend in the last 10-12 years. A sort of ‘plug the wrestling/ground fighting hole’ karate/tkd/kickboxing.

I understand the thinking, but not sure if it is a best way forward? Interesting.




Some good points aplant. I think it comes down, as always, to what a person wants. If they simply want to become proficient at fighting then MMA may be a faster and more rounded way than a lot of TMA. There are other reasons to train though and I,m not sure if MMA is always the answer.

I disagree with Dobbersky that MMA will get watered down. The common issue Karate and MMA have is money. In karate, the big money is in having a large school(s) with lots of students who show up regularly. With MMA attendance is also helpful, but a lot of money can be made producing successful fighters who earn millions of dollars. This can lead to other revenue streams for gyms, such as hosting seminars, releasing DVDs, affiliations etc..... As long as there is big money in full contact MMA, the training won't change much.


Edited by Prizewriter (10/28/13 05:23 PM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436059 - 10/29/13 10:04 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 114
Well I think that popularisation of Karate, Japanise Karate evolving to sport and etc is the fault of nearly everything I find [censored] about Karate now.

but the problem is that ''us'' knockdown styles are following along. My own style now is the same - Kimura Shukokai - used to be real full contact etc now it's just full contact in name because the heads of the organization have a) gotten old b) they want more people.

To me it seems ''Karate'' as a full contact thing is soon to be dead. Because the people that want full contact training don't even consider Karate anymore because the reputation is so crappy in that circle.

So they automatically dismiss it and go to MMA, Muay Thai, kickboxing, BJJ etc

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#436060 - 10/29/13 11:22 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Matakiant]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matakiant
Well I think that popularisation of Karate, Japanise Karate evolving to sport and etc is the fault of nearly everything I find [censored] about Karate now.

but the problem is that ''us'' knockdown styles are following along. My own style now is the same - Kimura Shukokai - used to be real full contact etc now it's just full contact in name because the heads of the organization have a) gotten old b) they want more people.

To me it seems ''Karate'' as a full contact thing is soon to be dead. Because the people that want full contact training don't even consider Karate anymore because the reputation is so crappy in that circle.

So they automatically dismiss it and go to MMA, Muay Thai, kickboxing, BJJ etc


Quite true. I tend to agree with you. Because reputations are hard to shake. and UFC is so big now. Many tend to look for an MMA or BJJ gym instead of the local Karate school etc. Machida is putting the face on for Karate but others like George St Pierre etc who are Karate fighters tend to be forgotten that they are karate as its how they are introduced by the announcer
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436061 - 10/29/13 12:37 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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Posts: 2572
I don't think it's fair to classify GSP as purely a "karate fighter". Yes he studied Karate but he also studided Boxing at the same time. In later life he studied MT, BJJ, Wrestling etc... Interestingly he still keeps up his boxing training (he has a specific boxing coach) but he doesn't seem to have a karate coach that he uses in his MMA training. Not to say Karate can't be used in MMA, but when Muay Thai offers a lot of the same skills as full contact Karate but doesn't spend any time on kata etc.... People might still see Muay Thai as a more straighforward art to learn.

As for Machida, isn't his karate background very much the bouncy bouncy "one hit one kill" Karate that you weren't happy about in the first place Ken?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436062 - 10/29/13 01:30 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Originally Posted By: Prizewriter

As for Machida, isn't his karate background very much the bouncy bouncy "one hit one kill" Karate that you weren't happy about in the first place Ken?



Machida is Old School Shotokan the same as BJJ is equivalent to pre-War Judo. They fight continous and train as such. I watched a programme on him and have his Book and he definitely specified that Machida Karate is different to JKA Karate etc.

Kyokushin is a mix of Shotokan/GojuRyu Muay Thai and in some parts Judo. And Ashihara and enshin have advanced from there. We also have Daido Juku which is a far cry from Traditional JKA Karate ashead butts and other techniques are totally usable in competition

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5AvCcLwaJQ
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436063 - 10/29/13 01:58 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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But Kyokushin still spends time teaching people kata etc that Muay Thai does not. Many full contact styles of karate do not allow punches to the head, Muay Thai does. Hence why Muay Thai is more popular in MMA gyms.

I can't comment on Machida, I have seen both him and his brother compete in JKA tournaments though. And certainly as aplant mentioned, I don't know enough about "old school karate" to comment on it.

Back to my original point, if you are interested in MMA why learn full contact karate when Muay Thai takes less time to learn and offers at the very least the same results in terms of combative ability?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436064 - 10/30/13 06:02 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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WHAT is wrong with Kata?????

IF the instructor teaches Kata the way its supposed to be taught with Bunkai and Ohyo etc then the School doesn't need a separated Self Defence programme.

I love Kata I teach kata from basic strikes to using it on the ground "Ne Waza" and this works and the students love the kata study. I even had one student say good jujitsu class tonight, I responded not jujitsu just true Karate.

every style has kata regardless and even MMA has Kata if you put several combos together a kata is created so that's that.

Its the Mcdojos teaching kata for belts and trophies only that is the issue.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436065 - 10/30/13 06:31 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. If you have 2 identical twins who did say, Kyokushin; one studies only Kata/Bunkai for a year, and one only studies Kumite for a year. After a year they have a fight out in the car park... I know who my money would be on.

For pure combative ability I don't see that kata would add all that much useful for an MMA fighter.

I would differentiate between drills in arts like BJJ and Muay Thai and Kata in Karate I've seen. Drills in BJJ and Muay Thai are drilled to then be applied directly in sparring. Kata does not always teach things that can be applied in sparring.

Again, people involved in MMA aren't stupid and many of them have TMA backgrounds in some way shape or form. If full contact Karate or "old school" Karate really was all that and a bag of chips people would be using it in MMA instead of Muay Thai/Boxing. They aren't though.

The first full contact Karate guy who entered the UFC was Minoki Ichihara so far as I am aware. He was a Daido Juku fighter. Here's how he faired against Royce Gracie. At no point does Royce look like he was going to lose this fight:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10006720/minoki_ichihara_vs_royce_gracie/

For people wanting to train in full contact fighting, MMA is a readily available option. I know you're passionate about your Karate Ken, but facts are facts. Full contact Karate is unlikely to produce as well rounded fighters as MMA is. If full contact or "old school" karate could produce well rounded full contact fighters, all the UFC champions would be Karate fighters and nothing else. We know they aren't.

I'm not suggesting Karate is a waste of time, but pining for a romanticised times when the common man quivered in terror at people who did Karate isn't useful or even necessarily accurate. Times have changed, people have more information about what is what and make choices accordingly.



Edited by Prizewriter (10/30/13 08:14 AM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436066 - 10/30/13 07:33 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
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Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 114
Another thing I thought about yesterday was what one of my Senseis said once in a discussion.

About our style drifting away from contact etc.

He was saying it was inevitable, that people don't want to learn full contact karate and that if he did things like ''we used to do them'' we would be in a class of 5 students compared to 30.

That made me sad a bit because he himself said he would want to teach full contact but it just isn't financially viable.

I think the older guys have largely given up... And the younger guys are just drifting to different styles where they get what they want without having to go through trying to change something that is full of stubborn mysticism like Karate.

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#436068 - 10/30/13 08:27 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Matakiant]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: Matakiant

He was saying it was inevitable, that people don't want to learn full contact karate and that if he did things like ''we used to do them'' we would be in a class of 5 students compared to 30.


Precisely. From listening to the majority of people in the majority of classes, most people are happy with light or semi contact. Most people in a lot of karate classes aren't trying to "fix" karate because they don't seem to neccesarily think it is broken. Most of the adults I know in Karate classes train because they love what they are doing and/or because they are teaching kids, which I suppose can be rewarding too.


Originally Posted By: Matakiant

I think the older guys have largely given up... And the younger guys are just drifting to different styles where they get what they want without having to go through trying to change something that is full of stubborn mysticism like Karate.


I can understand that and that is a good point Matakiant. After a long time of "hard" karate training the body might understandably want a rest. Or perhaps other reasons have forced older generations to leave karate.

I don't think Karate will change for the following reasons:

1) Most people involved in WKF style Karate don't think it's broken so why fix it.

2) Anyone who doesn't like their Karate class can either quit altogether or train elsewhere, which are far easier choices rather than re-inventing karate to suit a niche audience

3) As Matakiant points out, schools of full contact or deadly "old school" Karate will likely have a negative impact on Karate attendance. A consequentialist argument could be made that this would reduce the availabilty of karate as if schools don't have the numbers they may have to close. In that void stuff like MMA might step in and marginalise Karate even further.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436070 - 10/31/13 05:51 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Dobbersky Offline
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All, I really appreciate your responses and I do really acknowledge and accept your views. Its something many of us are passionate about and I think that unless they change things within the styles to be more of what is needed, I agree even Kyokushin could be deemed as Sports Karate in a way but where do we go for True Karate. Do we go for Knockdown (that has its weaknesses too) or do we go for Okinawan karate like Shorin Ryu etc (this has kata practice as its heart) but as Prizewriter said Why practice Kata if you can do Muay Thai etc. Well I did Muay Thai for years and One Kata gave me a lot more than all the years of Muay Thai put together.

I think Its 1/2 dozen of one 6 of another.

But I think if the author claims to have spent 20 years in Karate then why, I have studied various styles and I moved on if the style/Instructor wasn't giving me what I was looking for. Yes I know practice Ashihara Karate which practice Jissen Kata not traditional Kata but for me to discard traditional kata is a mistake hence why I personally practice 4 traidtional Kata.

If we add Kung Fu into the mix and they have their forms which are older versions of those found in Karate they must also have the same issues. I know the Kung Fu fighters didn't last 3 minutes in UFC and other cage fighting events so even worse.

If we look Deeper and look at San Shou Kuai Jiao (spelling) this is more akin to Okinawan arts and involves stand up and wrestling and does well in many events including Cage events.

I think that's why Krav Maga, Kappap and Keysi Fighting Method are becoming more popular in attendees as the "quick fix" is what people are looking for these days.

Muay Thai isn't a quick fix, BJJ isn't a quick fix it takes some serious commitment to get any good in these arts just as it is in Karate/KungFu/Jujitsu.

But Saying that IF I wasn't studying/teaching Karate I would be practicing Lancashire Catch Wresting - considered by many to be the most leathal form of wrestling
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#436071 - 10/31/13 07:00 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
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Prizewriter
Quote:
I disagree with Dobbersky that MMA will get watered down. The common issue Karate and MMA have is money. In karate, the big money is in having a large school(s) with lots of students who show up regularly. With MMA attendance is also helpful, but a lot of money can be made producing successful fighters who earn millions of dollars.

I disagree with your reasoning here Prizewriter. The gyms and fighters making the big money are few and far between. Especially out of the states (perhaps?). There are many people who train without ever wanting to go pro or get in the ring. I also wonder how long MMA gyms will be able to justify charging so much to train. If UFC type MMA’s popularity has peaked (not sure it has) but also when the current generation decide to teach and open new schools prices might become more competitive.

I agree that MMA will not get watered down in the same way as some traditional MA’s have. Here I’d compare it to Judo or boxing where any weaknesses that arise (are brought in) are soon exposed by the nature of the training itself.

As with all MA trends, faux MMA schools do pop up. Schools with no experience in say wrestling and ground fighting add ‘MMA’ to their repertoire as if it were a variation on a punch or kick.

I understand that people have invested a lot in time, money and dedication to training in karate here. I think that some of the arguments sound like those of pre-MMA karate where I remember hearing the argument that went something like ‘If he’d studied real karate, he’d have hit him and stopped that take-down’. Now it sounds like I’m mocking, but this was genuine, widespread thinking in TMA.

Matakiant said:
Quote:
Well I think that popularisation of Karate, Japanise Karate evolving to sport and etc is the fault of nearly everything I find [censored] about Karate now.


Dobbersky said:
Quote:
I agree even Kyokushin could be deemed as Sports Karate in a way


I was unaware that there was any argument that kyokushin was anything but sportified karate? Isn’t it’s history built on challenge matches and such? Certainly doesn't seem to have done it too much harm.

Quote:
but where do we go for True Karate.


It would be EXCELLENT if you could put something like a definition of what you think true karate is.

I might give you some options:
a) What old/ancient Karate was
b) A complete fighting system

The evidence suggests you can’t have both.

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#436072 - 10/31/13 05:57 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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You could be right aplant,I may overestimate the revenue from competition n MMA that said it still is a revenue stream for some gyms I'm sure. I think a way of measuring how good an MMA school is is how well do it's members do in competition? MMA can be expensive ( as can BJJ). As both systems are relatively young there may be only a small number of quality gyms available. I'm not sure though.

I agree that systems like boxing and Judo remain relatively unsoftened over time. I don't think a combat system gets watered down just because it is popular. Other factors come in to play, such as financial considerations and philosophical shift e.g. The "do" in karate, which seemed to discuss karate as a vehicle for self improvement rather than some pure killing art. Karate history and politics aren't my strong suit though, so this is purely speculative!
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#436073 - 11/01/13 09:51 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
You could be right aplant,I may overestimate the revenue from competition n MMA that said it still is a revenue stream for some gyms I'm sure. I think a way of measuring how good an MMA school is is how well do it's members do in competition? MMA can be expensive ( as can BJJ). As both systems are relatively young there may be only a small number of quality gyms available. I'm not sure though.

I agree that systems like boxing and Judo remain relatively unsoftened over time. I don't think a combat system gets watered down just because it is popular. Other factors come in to play, such as financial considerations and philosophical shift e.g. The "do" in karate, which seemed to discuss karate as a vehicle for self improvement rather than some pure killing art. Karate history and politics aren't my strong suit though, so this is purely speculative!





I partially agree. The DO could be the reason for its downfall not the issue with Sports Karate.

When I teach and that's maybe why I'm so different is that I teach as per my ethos "Karate for the streets not just for Trophies" SO evebn though I concider myself as Karate DO maybe I'm actually Karate Jutsu. I know my style tends to get pushed off in Traditional Karate Forums etc as they don't appreciate the finer parts of my style when its Kata and basics are modern and actually "created" to be used in street situations etc.


Edited by Dobbersky (11/01/13 09:55 AM)
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#436074 - 11/02/13 11:34 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dobbersky

When I teach and that's maybe why I'm so different is that I teach as per my ethos "Karate for the streets not just for Trophies"


Who said those 2 things have to be mutually exclusive? I know plenty of "sports" fighters who could kick ass in a fight outside of a bar or in a car park. In fact I posted a collection of "sports" fighters on YouTube in real life altercations. They all did pretty well.

Ask yourself this: would you really want to get into a street fight with a Kyokushin national champion? Or heck, even a WKF world kumite champion?


Edited by Prizewriter (11/02/13 12:21 PM)
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#436087 - 11/27/13 10:41 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
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I remember you posting something but I recall it was a BJJ guy and a boxer???

Well I would get in a fight with the WKF world kumite champion if that's all he has done he'd at least break his arm if he hit me! Ehh sarcasm aside yes obviously any training is better than none.... But ''some'' training that isn't all that effective for self defense can create a dangerous delusion in a practitioner that they are trained for something they aren't (if that makes any sense)

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#436089 - 11/28/13 06:12 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky

When I teach and that's maybe why I'm so different is that I teach as per my ethos "Karate for the streets not just for Trophies"


Who said those 2 things have to be mutually exclusive? I know plenty of "sports" fighters who could kick ass in a fight outside of a bar or in a car park. In fact I posted a collection of "sports" fighters on YouTube in real life altercations. They all did pretty well.

Ask yourself this: would you really want to get into a street fight with a Kyokushin national champion? Or heck, even a WKF world kumite champion?


Well as per my ethos "...........not JUST for trophies"

I have no qualms with fighters competing in competitions as long as they are more realistic in context, the Shonbu Sanbon and the Shonbu Nihon are not as realistic, with the one strike one kill ruling, as they should be. the fighters are more focused on pulling the strike back and screaming than they are in actually giving a strike that would IF full contact do some damamge. Kyokushin and Knockdown Karate do compete in many knockdown tournes around the world. But this type of comeptition is one of the best testing grounds apart from the ring or the cage.
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436090 - 11/28/13 12:53 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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Again though, why is that someone who pulls a strike and screams any less able to defend themselves?

Someone on the forums a few years back posted a news story about a teenage girl from Denver who successfully defended herself from a man who tried to assault her.

There was of course the clips of the BBC reporter who defended himself against someone who was trying to attack him. Videos are still on YouTube.

Both of those incidents involved people who studied "light contact" karate if memory serves. I wonder sometimes if the idea that self defence = full contact training is more to do with machoism than any real understanding of the massive amount of variables that come in to play in self defence situations

A point could be made that arts like Kyokushin and Muay Thai generally employ a rock 'em sock 'em mentality where combatants simply stand toe to toe until one person falls over. The "bouncy bouncy" WKF style of karate or Olympic TKD employ a much more mobile approach to fighting, where a lot of emphasis is also on evasion of blows. What approach offers the best chance of not getting hit?
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436091 - 11/29/13 04:52 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Again though, why is that someone who pulls a strike and screams any less able to defend themselves?

Someone on the forums a few years back posted a news story about a teenage girl from Denver who successfully defended herself from a man who tried to assault her.

There was of course the clips of the BBC reporter who defended himself against someone who was trying to attack him. Videos are still on YouTube.

Both of those incidents involved people who studied "light contact" karate if memory serves. I wonder sometimes if the idea that self defence = full contact training is more to do with machoism than any real understanding of the massive amount of variables that come in to play in self defence situations

A point could be made that arts like Kyokushin and Muay Thai generally employ a rock 'em sock 'em mentality where combatants simply stand toe to toe until one person falls over. The "bouncy bouncy" WKF style of karate or Olympic TKD employ a much more mobile approach to fighting, where a lot of emphasis is also on evasion of blows. What approach offers the best chance of not getting hit?



It's an honour to discuss this topic with you Prizewriter.

With regards to what you say, I agree there are some good and effective martial artists on this circuit but very few. most of them are unable to work outside the Dojo, Mat or Ring. If one prcatices "NON-CONTACT" martial arts then how does one "HIT" someoene without breaking one's hand or wrist or ankle etc. At least with Kyokushin, as you refer to us a "Neanderthals of Karate" we use are natural instincts to know how to hit properly without damage to ourselves because we actually "HIT" humans which is differrent from hitting a bag.
We may "slog it out" on the Mat and punch and Kick till someone drops but we do practice Sabaki and kuzushi in the Dojo and in Ashihara and Enshin we do apply our Kata properly if you remember Brad (Butterfly). Also I've never heard of a "KYOKUSHIN black belt being assaulted" or an Ashihara or Enshin or Daito Juku either, but I have heard of WKF etc blackbelts being assaulted etc. And we Neanderthals get tarred with the same brush as we are Karateka too. But if you look at most of the Okinawan styles like Goju Ryu Shorin Ryu Shuri Ryu Uechi Ryu etc they practice Kumite sparing the same way as Kyokushin. Its the event of Japanses Karate and the JKA etc that caused the downfall of Karate wit the bouncy bouncy. TKD olympic style is concidered as the boys game of martial arts around the world and many martial artists from OTHER systems like Jujitsu and MMA concider Karate as the weaker/softer martial arts and we can't change their opinion of that unless we change what people concider as proper kumite.
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#436093 - 11/29/13 06:57 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
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Full contact karate practioner beaten badly in prison by a fellow inmate:

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9902

Of course doing full contact karate doesn't make someone Superman. The Royce Gracie fight also shows how badly a full contact karate fighter can be caught out by a grappler too.

I certainly would not describe full contact practioners as "Neanderthals". I would question why they spar they way they spar and how much sense is applied to it vs how much is machoism. I would also question the belief this makes them better than other karate-ka. I may be wrong, but didn't the founder of Ashihara Karate leave Oyama because in part he felt that Kyokushin Karate with rock 'em sock'em style favoured larger, more powerful fighters? Didn't he at least try and introduce more evasion in Kumite?

The question I would also ask is why do you care what other people think? If people are ignorant about what you are doing, that's their problem. I've never considered using martial arts as an affectation to impress people. Just do your own thing and don't worry about what other people think. Whatever pastime you do, there will always be a queue of people who don't understand it. Just spend time with people who enjoy what you enjoy and get what it's all about.

I'm playing devils advocate here I know! Just to keep some discussion going on FA forums. It's a good topic.
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436100 - 12/01/13 08:37 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
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Very interesting thread

For that matter look how far "Tank" Abbott of the old UFC got on being really aggressive, strong and not minding taking hits.

Of course he usually lost to better/ and better trained fighters but he also laid out a long file of other trained fighters prior.
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#436104 - 12/05/13 09:56 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Full contact karate practioner beaten badly in prison by a fellow inmate:

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9902

Of course doing full contact karate doesn't make someone Superman. The Royce Gracie fight also shows how badly a full contact karate fighter can be caught out by a grappler too.


Totally agree, I'm not saying that Knockdown Karate is the be all and end all, just a little more prepared for taking hits. Grapplers fight on a different plane and grapplers realised that when the Strikers learnt a bit of ground/grappling skills it meant that they had to learn striking skills too to bring the "game" back to a fairer plane.

Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
I certainly would not describe full contact practioners as "Neanderthals". I would question why they spar they way they spar and how much sense is applied to it vs how much is machoism. I would also question the belief this makes them better than other karate-ka.


I wouldn't say we are "Macho" some of the most humble Karateka are Kyokushin and knckdown karateka

Most Okinawan and Kyokushin based Karateka do fight/spar to more harder levels but the other extreme is Go Kan Ryu or Choi Kwang Do where its all none contact - do recall the first time you got hit, did you freeze or did you go "OK that's just like in training"

Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
I may be wrong, but didn't the founder of Ashihara Karate leave Oyama because in part he felt that Kyokushin Karate with rock 'em sock'em style favoured larger, more powerful fighters? Didn't he at least try and introduce more evasion in Kumite?


That's correct but slightly different he wanted to give the new guys and smaller guys the ability to still give as much as they got but with the ability to use sabaki thus being able to strike and attack reducing the taking of hits on the way in - normally Sabaki isn't taught to anyone below Black belt in most karate schools

Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
The question I would also ask is why do you care what other people think? If people are ignorant about what you are doing, that's their problem. I've never considered using martial arts as an affectation to impress people. Just do your own thing and don't worry about what other people think. Whatever pastime you do, there will always be a queue of people who don't understand it. Just spend time with people who enjoy what you enjoy and get what it's all about.

I'm playing devils advocate here I know! Just to keep some discussion going on FA forums. It's a good topic.



I care because I get fed up with being tarred with the same brush by people who don't know any different. but once they've made the decision that Karate is a soft art and doesn't work, you can't change their minds UNTIL they start seeing changes on the Mat and TV etc
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#436109 - 12/09/13 05:07 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dobbersky


Most Okinawan and Kyokushin based Karateka do fight/spar to more harder levels but the other extreme is Go Kan Ryu or Choi Kwang Do where its all none contact - do recall the first time you got hit, did you freeze or did you go "OK that's just like in training"


I kept going, but my first full contact training was boxing. How much free sparrring do traditional okinawan schools do though?? The only traditional Okinwan school in NI doesn't spar.




Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
I care because I get fed up with being tarred with the same brush by people who don't know any different. but once they've made the decision that Karate is a soft art and doesn't work, you can't change their minds UNTIL they start seeing changes on the Mat and TV etc



I don't see why you are going out of your way to appease people who are too lazy/ignorant to understand what you are doing. It might have the opposite effect of what you want anyway. Wanting everyone to like what you are doing as much as you do may come across as well... a bit needy lol! I think in the internet age peopele are more clued in about what is what anyway. I don't think it is ignorance that is keeping MMA fighters out of full contact karate schools.

You may have to face facts Ken and accept that full contact karate may never be a popular training method with MMA fighters, no matter how much you try and please them. The vast vast majority of MMA champions have been successful without Full contact Karate. That is the fact of the matter.
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#436111 - 12/11/13 06:41 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Dobbersky Offline
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Yes Prizerwriter,

I must admit, although its hard to, that you are correct. The damage has been done and the scars are already too deep to hide now. Geroge StPierre, Semmy Schilt, Andy Hug and others are our Ambasadors of Full COntact Karate but there's not enough of them to change things about it. Maybe when more Daito Juku fighters are entering the Cage in UFC and are proudly represented as Daito Juku fighter as UFC tend to declare as many as possible as Mixed Martial Artists etc. Hence why I don't recall any TKD'ists or JKD'ists on the event cards

I suppose comparing it to a piece of paper, you crumple it into a ball its all creased etc, you open it out flat again, the creases are still there, even if you "iron" the piece of paper the creases are stil visable
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#436112 - 12/11/13 10:11 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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FWIW Ken I think there is a lot of value in Full contact styles and most genuinely good karate schools. I think the template for MMA has already been cut though, and it will be hard for anything to change that for the forseeable future.
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436113 - 12/11/13 06:04 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
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Folks

Very interesting read--thanks for taking the time to have the discussion. smile

UN-informed consumers taking their cues from what that see on TV.....same problem the martial arts have always had....albiet from a different direction this time.



Edited by cxt (12/11/13 06:07 PM)
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