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#436043 - 10/25/13 07:32 AM It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!!
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
http://dysfunctionalparrot.com/5-things/karate/

Read the Link and the responses

It angers me that quite a lot of what he said and others who responded to the Blog is true. But its nothing to do wth the "Style" its the way its been taught.

Ole Skool Karate regardless of style was as tough and as hard as it came. It WAS street effective and we did grab and grapple and go to the ground and "wrestle" as well as other waza. But Sports Karate with the Typy Tappy bouncy bouncy scream and shout stuff with this "one strike one kill" theory that just doesn't work!!!! It was proved in the early UFC matches that the "pure" karateka was useless against a grappler because they refused to acknowledge ne waza etc due to the incite of Sports Karate. I blame YOU for what the world thinks about Karate, unfortunately We Knockdown are tarnished with the same brush as you guys.

I hate it when people say "oh Karate doesn't work" Jujitsu is much better and why because the only experience they have is Sport Karate and JKA JKF and the other "modern Orgs" where Semi and non contact is the trend.

But are you going to change anything about it......... No you're not, because you still believe your stuff is brilliant because you got a wall of trophies in your McDojo.

I don't like it at all. YOU ALL need to sort out the organisations by telling them you want Karate to be more effective or vote with you Membership by leaving and joining an Orgnaisation that does Want Karate to be what it used to be.

Johnny's mother has won, she wanted Johnny to be a 10 year old 3rd Dan but without getting a bruise or having to fight for real against other black belts etc. Its become a product to make profit from not an art which is taught to few who can survive the training.

MMA is very popular and they do hit and they hit hard and they grapple and everything else that is not allowed in Karate. stop being pretend black belts and do something to change what the world thinks of Karate

OSU
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436044 - 10/25/13 07:56 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
A few points Ken:

Why would people "fix" karate when MMA is so readily available now? If people want hard training, trying to re-invent the wheel in a Karate class would be much harder work that going "Screw this, lets go do MMA".

Second point would be that maybe there are a lot of people in Karate who like the JKF way of doing things. I've seen some serious injuries in Judo tournaments and with the MMA folks I've trained with. Trainined in hard, full contact systems takes a toll on people. Training in a light-contact system might be less likely to induce injuries. Some people might prefer that.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436045 - 10/25/13 10:26 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
A few points Ken:

Why would people "fix" karate when MMA is so readily available now? If people want hard training, trying to re-invent the wheel in a Karate class would be much harder work that going "Screw this, lets go do MMA".

Second point would be that maybe there are a lot of people in Karate who like the JKF way of doing things. I've seen some serious injuries in Judo tournaments and with the MMA folks I've trained with. Trainined in hard, full contact systems takes a toll on people. Training in a light-contact system might be less likely to induce injuries. Some people might prefer that.


Understood, but Karate is being wasted with the instruction its receiving at present, It's becoming akin to WTF where its nothing more than an Olympic sport which has no workable syllabus outside the competition arena.

I think MMA is just a Jujitsu/Muay Thai mix which was a fad but has started to take hold, but again I can see this having the same happening to it; when Johnny's mother gets involverd
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436046 - 10/25/13 12:03 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Maybe, but then again boxing has existed for the last few centuries and has always been full contact. Ditto Judo. Same with Muay Thai. MMA may remain the way it is for a very long time.

As for Dysfunctional Parrot (the blog author) the author simply found there were far better ways to spend his time and money rather than doing karate. He found better ways to stay in shape and didn't feel Karate was that effective for self defense. Karate also took up far too much time, time away from his family. I can't blame him for quitting Karate. If I'm being honest, in his position, I would do the same probably.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436048 - 10/26/13 03:54 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Prizewriter

agree with the first point but totally disagree with the second point. you use the umbrella word of Karate and that is the issue, let's change the word to Kung Fu, but this includes Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do or Jujitsu and this includes ALL styles of Judo and Jujitsu and MMA. do you see my point.

He's trained at McDojo's so I have to be labelled the same because the average person can not differentiate between styles etc.

I refuse to be associated with a McDojo that teaches below standard martial arts because the author has an opinion which in many cases isn't supported with any real evidence.

I had a bad experience with some American tourists in the UK, so am I perfectly enpowered to write All Americans are Arrogant etc. I know and you know that this is not the case, but it highlights my points

I still feel that we knockdown and Okinawan Karate ka need to unattach ourselves from the Mcdojos of the world some how
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#436053 - 10/26/13 09:40 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
He mentions in another article he trained in Karate for over 20 years, and trained with different clubs and within different organisations. He also seems like an intelligent person. He also trained in TKD. I for one can't say whether every single school he went to was a McDojo. He mentions in one school they extensively used a makiwara, which doesn't seem to be something they use in a lot of WKF style classes. For all we know he could well have studied full contact karate and okinawan karate at some point.

Others made the point on his blog that he wasn't training at "the right school", but he maintained that after more than 20 years of karate, karate was simply too time consuming and offered little benefit. I don't think he would've changed his mind even if he went o an okinawan karate school.

And I have to agree with Dysfuctional Parrot's point that karate isn't the best way to keep in shape. Sure, if you aren't active karate is better than nothing, but nowhere nearly the best exercise for stay healthy surely. Even knockdown karate, with severe blows to the head and large potential for joint damage (Mas Oyama had crippling arthritis from a relatively young age) to the possible dubious effects of old school Goju okinawan karate on blood pressure.

One final point: After 20 plus years of karate, and probably having spent a massive amount of his time and money with karate, I certainly don't think he owed karate anything. It took a lot from him and he felt he got little back. Why should he go out of his way to change karate and potentially, from his point of view, waste more time. I know you're passionate about karate Ken, but regardless of style some people who train in karate will have a negative opinion on it. That's life.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436055 - 10/28/13 09:57 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Clearly the guy had a poor experience with his school/s.

Not an uncommon outcome these days......sadly enough.

But I still don't understand why people routinely mistake THIER personal experience for EVERYONES personal experience. Then they draw blanket conclusions for what are fairly subjective and individual events and outcomes.

In terms of MMA--IMO its the same set of problems from a different angle. How many people do you know that are willing to put up with the rigors of full MMA training?




Edited by cxt (10/28/13 09:58 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#436056 - 10/28/13 10:17 AM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
In the blog the author describes things the several things that will happen if you leave (or in this case ‘diss’) karate:

1) Accused of having no honour:
Quote:
But are you going to change anything about it......... No you're not, because you still believe your stuff is brilliant because you got a wall of trophies in your McDojo.

I don't like it at all. YOU ALL need to sort out the organisations by telling them you want Karate to be more effective


2) Accused of having a bad sensei:
Quote:
its the way its been taught

Quote:
Karate is being wasted with the instruction its receiving at present


3) Accused on inferior style:
Quote:
McDojo's so I have to be labelled the same because the average person can not differentiate between styles

Quote:
I hate it when people say "oh Karate doesn't work" Jujitsu is much better and why because the only experience they have is Sport Karate and JKA JKF and the other "modern Orgs" where Semi and non contact is the trend.

Quote:
Karate is being wasted …It's becoming akin to WTF


4) Accused of McDojo
Quote:
He's trained at McDojo's so…


Dobbersky, apologies if this is over critical of your post. This is a topic I find interesting and an area where my opinion has shifted over the years. A few more points I’ll pick up.

Quote:
McDojo that teaches below standard martial arts


The fact of the matter is that there are NO standards.
Another MAist might walk in on any of our training and call it substandard.

You wrote:
Quote:
author has an opinion which in many cases isn't supported with any real evidence.


I actually think that the author makes a good argument, admittedly his evidence is mostly from personal experience so is limited.

I would also point out that claims you make have similarly little evidence. One claim that I never really found strong evidence for is similar to your:

Quote:
Ole Skool Karate regardless of style was as tough and as hard as it came. It WAS street effective and we did grab and grapple and go to the ground and "wrestle" as well as other waza


Prizewriter:

Quote:
Why would people "fix" karate when MMA is so readily available now? If people want hard training, trying to re-invent the wheel in a Karate class would be much harder work that going "Screw this, lets go do MMA".


Very interesting point. Worthy of a thread in itself. I think this has been a big trend in the last 10-12 years. A sort of ‘plug the wrestling/ground fighting hole’ karate/tkd/kickboxing.

I understand the thinking, but not sure if it is a best way forward? Interesting.

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#436057 - 10/28/13 05:09 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: cxt]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: cxt
Clearly the guy had a poor experience with his school/s.

Not an uncommon outcome these days......sadly enough.

But I still don't understand why people routinely mistake THIER personal experience for EVERYONES personal experience. Then they draw blanket conclusions for what are fairly subjective and individual events and outcomes.

In terms of MMA--IMO its the same set of problems from a different angle. How many people do you know that are willing to put up with the rigors of full MMA training?




Exactly!! Hence why WKF style karate is so popular: it retains a combative element without being overly brutal. I suspect a lot of people rather like this, hence why the WKF is the largest karate governing body and recognised by the IOC. They can fight within certain limits but still get up and go to work on Monday. To quote a song " The public gets what the public wants". Supply and demand. There are clearly a lot of people who like WKF style karate, otherwise it wouldn't be so popular.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#436058 - 10/28/13 05:23 PM Re: It's YOUR fault Sports Karate!!!! [Re: aplant]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: aplant


Prizewriter:

Quote:
Why would people "fix" karate when MMA is so readily available now? If people want hard training, trying to re-invent the wheel in a Karate class would be much harder work that going "Screw this, lets go do MMA".


Very interesting point. Worthy of a thread in itself. I think this has been a big trend in the last 10-12 years. A sort of ‘plug the wrestling/ground fighting hole’ karate/tkd/kickboxing.

I understand the thinking, but not sure if it is a best way forward? Interesting.




Some good points aplant. I think it comes down, as always, to what a person wants. If they simply want to become proficient at fighting then MMA may be a faster and more rounded way than a lot of TMA. There are other reasons to train though and I,m not sure if MMA is always the answer.

I disagree with Dobbersky that MMA will get watered down. The common issue Karate and MMA have is money. In karate, the big money is in having a large school(s) with lots of students who show up regularly. With MMA attendance is also helpful, but a lot of money can be made producing successful fighters who earn millions of dollars. This can lead to other revenue streams for gyms, such as hosting seminars, releasing DVDs, affiliations etc..... As long as there is big money in full contact MMA, the training won't change much.


Edited by Prizewriter (10/28/13 05:23 PM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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