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#435962 - 08/15/13 09:29 AM Can External Arts become Internal Arts?
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
The question I have as it seems the more I train and practice my Style, Ashihara which is very much an External Art, the more internal it becomes.

I find I'm looking so much into the forms the movements, how the body feels, how it moves and what is going on inside the body and mind of the opponent at the same time.

I'm looking at the whats whys and whens of my style etc and the whatifs

Am I right to think this or is this just the Shu Ha Ri of Karate?
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435963 - 08/16/13 12:23 AM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: Dobbersky]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I have experienced similar feelings as my iaido practice brought me closer to what I could only think of as a catharsis.

The ritual of practice sublimates violence into spending itself on imaginary attackers whose "death" will provoke neither guilt nor reprisals.
Rather than "Thou shalt not", "Thou shalt" until the desire to commit any act of violence is ritually expelled.

After a good practice session the world has become a better and friendlier place.

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#435964 - 08/16/13 07:58 AM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
I'd say you guys are right.

IMO the arts probably lead to the same place eventually--regardless of the exact style one practices.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#435965 - 08/16/13 04:42 PM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: Dobbersky]
nahate Offline
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Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 54
Loc: No VA suburbs of Wash DC
Can an art that originated geographically outside of China (external) become an art that originate internally (within) China? No, I don't believe that's possible. The confusion between subtle and softer arts like Tai Chi, Hsing I and Pagua with internal and harder arts like Shaolin with external is common but wrong.

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#435966 - 08/19/13 04:43 AM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: nahate]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: nahate
Can an art that originated geographically outside of China (external) become an art that originate internally (within) China? No, I don't believe that's possible. The confusion between subtle and softer arts like Tai Chi, Hsing I and Pagua with internal and harder arts like Shaolin with external is common but wrong.


I (we) would love you to expand on this theory
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435967 - 08/19/13 07:51 AM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
nahate

Me too.

I get what your trying to imply with the latter part of the statement but not the first part.

Maybe its just me--pretty early in the morning here.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#435969 - 08/20/13 03:58 AM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 119
How the body feels and how it moves...

If internalising movement makes a martial art soft or internal or whatever... Then blargh.

I've never been much for this hocus pocus and never will. Like someone said it should all be leading to the same place anyway. And to for me who has only practiced full contact karate it makes absolute sense that the more I train the more I end up focusing on movements that are far less visible upon external examination.

Or have I missed the question here?

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#435971 - 08/20/13 08:40 AM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
On my limited Taiji/Qi Gong experience, the only thing I would say is relaxed != internal. Internal arts require a lot of energy.

The best explnation is from Tim Cartmell of internal/external, a man with a lot of martial arts experience, in particular with Neijia arts.

http://www.shenwu.com/Internal_VS_External.htm
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435973 - 08/20/13 02:52 PM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: Prizewriter]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Sorry, was in a rush earlier!

The key phrase in Mr Cartmell's excellent article is this I think:

"The external martial arts, although engaging the body as a whole in generating power sequentially, do not use the body in a complete unit as do the internal martial arts. "

&

"The sequence of training in external martial arts also differs in purpose. In the early stages of training, external martial arts place greater emphasis on increasing strength and endurance as the "raw material" to be refined later into precise technique. Whereas the goal of internal style stance training is to train the nervous system into the feeling of a unified body, the external martial artist stands to increase the strength, endurance and flexibility."

So to answer your original question Ken, I would ask do you feel that your current training develops unified whole body power rather than using the whole body to sequentially generate power? And do you feel you are training your nervous system to develop sensitivity to generate unified body power?

If the answer is "no" or "I'm not sure" to either or both questions, chances are you are not doing your art internally, at least in the Neijia understanding of internal. You might feel the movements come more easily to you, or you can relax more in order to get the same result you use to work hard for, but that isn't necessarily internal.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435974 - 08/21/13 07:12 AM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Sorry, was in a rush earlier!

The key phrase in Mr Cartmell's excellent article is this I think:

"The external martial arts, although engaging the body as a whole in generating power sequentially, do not use the body in a complete unit as do the internal martial arts. "

&

So to answer your original question Ken, I would ask do you feel that your current training develops unified whole body power rather than using the whole body to sequentially generate power?


Thanks for the reponse.
I would say almost, I'm generating power from the floor upwards, Feeling the technique all the way through to the end


Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
And do you feel you are training your nervous system to develop sensitivity to generate unified body power?

I would say yes as it is moving with the technique as if it was one with the technique or one with the opponent.

I can stand, sit or lie down and practice Kata, and as I practice my body twitches as I go through the kata as if my body s doing the technique for real
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435975 - 08/21/13 10:54 AM Re: Can External Arts become Internal Arts? [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky

I would say yes as it is moving with the technique as if it was one with the technique or one with the opponent.

I can stand, sit or lie down and practice Kata, and as I practice my body twitches as I go through the kata as if my body s doing the technique for real


Maybe I'm not understanding correctly what you are saying, but "feeling you are one" isn't necessairly internal. It is very hard to describe in words, so I don't want to get in circles here.

Tell you what, there is a simple test they use in Internal Arts to demonstrate part of internal strength, so try this.

During your Kata, get to the point where you are most "at one", stop and hold it. Extend your hand with an open palm as though you were waiting for somone to hi 5 you.

Get someone the same size as you to press their hand against yours with one hand, and they take their other hand and grab your wrist of your extended arm firmly.

The person will then push/pull without warning with all their might on your extended arm. If when feeling "as one" they are able to off balance you at all, then you haven't developed "internal strength".

Or a simpler test: Go to Taijiquan class when they are doing push hands and take on the most experienced/strongest push hands player. Get in to the point where you feel "at one" and see if you can overcome the person. This could be a small indicator of whether or not you have developed "internal strength".


One thing I would say is that "internal" isn't somehow "better". It is simply a different way of training. There was a massive American Judoka who years ago went to Chen Village (the spiritual home of Taijiquan) and went up on to the dais and smashed the best Chen "internal" masters at push hands.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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