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#434014 - 10/17/11 09:30 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I'm sorry if I upset you so much I am not the best at expressing myself in English but I wasn't questioning history I was asking a question tyvm no need to spazz.

Ohh and if you do look at history some very famous teachers do name some Katas to be for conditioning and strengthening the body...

Anyway my practice on Kata etc wont change until I meet someone who dilligently practices bunkai and can show me a performance of Kata, technique and full contact sparring that exceeds mine and of those who I practice with...

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#434015 - 10/18/11 12:08 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:
I'm sorry if I upset you so much I am not the best at expressing myself in English but I wasn't questioning history I was asking a question tyvm no need to spazz.



Not upset, just calling into question your claim that there is no history for "bunkai"..it's definitely there, even though the term is new.

Yeah, some famous people said kata helps condition etc..the thing is they did not say that is all it did, and certainly conditioning and strengthening are not mutually exclusive to application, in fact they should work hand in hand.

Plenty of Modern Japanese Budo type Karate mostly does kata this way, that's great and all, but it isn't all there is...an it is modern Japanese Budo, a different take than the Okinawan stuff.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/18/11 12:13 AM)

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#434017 - 10/18/11 11:47 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I see what I believe at least in Martial Arts. Since Martial Arts aren't as numerous here as in the Americas or the bigger European countries my experiences with other styles are few, definately fewer than any Americans. But I've seen some Shotokan practitioners and asked them to show me a Bunkai..

The problems I have with them is that they are mostly ridiculous I consider it a matter of interpertation and if someone who really lacks any kind of combat experience or even training in full contact starts showing me techniques which make absolutely no sense and containt poor body mechanics well it just doesn't impress.

I'm not saying that the techniques in Kata are not useable - that would be a ridiculous thing to think in itself - I'm just saying I do not believe Katas to be some strings of techniques I see some techniques in Katas going hand to hand but I also see that many Katas we practice in Karate are actually weapon Katas so searching Katas for long stringed techniques meant to be used in situation A, B or C just doesn't seem like a very practical thing to do.

If your basic technique is strong then all you need is the experience to put those techniques together if you have a good flow and a good technique you can make your own ''bunkai'' with or without Katas. That's at least what I think.. There are many pitfalls in Martial Arts but there are also many hacks trying to teach things they don't know so maybe my experiences have been 1 sided and maybe somewhere up ahead I have something to learn from somebody with a completely different perspective.

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#434022 - 10/18/11 01:07 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I can't argue with anything you've said.

The people who teach good kata application and drilling don't teach an unending string of "a" "b" "c", it's more universal than that. Again take shuto as an example, just have someoone fire off punches at you and use shuto, it's a wedge, a strike, it works inside and outside, it doesn't require a specific attack or circumstance to be effective.

AS far as kata application, if you take the people who are bad at it and make that the standard, then ya..that's what you'll get. As I said though there are people out there who have put out really good material, Kane and Wilder, Iain Abernethy, and Vince Morris/other Kissaki Kai guys are the people I would look at, none of these people are hacks in any way.

As far as not 'needing it'..well yeah you can get by with just kihon and karate sparring, but personally I don't want to do kata unless it's linked to some kind of functional two man practice and combative use. Id on't see a point in doing the katas without understanding what they are for.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/18/11 01:08 PM)

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#434025 - 10/18/11 07:35 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Matakiant wrote:

Quote:
I see some techniques in Katas going hand to hand but I also see that many Katas we practice in Karate are actually weapon Katas


Would you care to give some more detail regarding the latter part of that statement. I find it very intriguing.

Thank you.

Kakushiite
Cayuga Karate

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#434028 - 10/19/11 10:01 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: kakushiite]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Since I have had some kobudo practice, I'm very intrigued too.
_________________________
Ives

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#434085 - 10/29/11 09:22 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ken:

In a word, nope.

There are many perfectly fine techniques, they are not attached to any specific rankings. If it is not simple, easy and based on structure, positioning, mechanics... it is not kara-te.

Our art is kata-centric. All kinds of things are buried in plain sight. Escapes from chokes, grabs, locks... are all there.

We use the older Shorin forms prior to the creation of the Pinans, the "dai" or "sho" additions.

Jeff

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#434091 - 10/31/11 09:39 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Ronin1966]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All

Thank you so much for such an excellent read of varying degree of knowledge and opinions (I was off for a few weeks so unable to respond)

The Kata I provided was the FIRST Kata that is in our Syllabus - the equivalent of Taikyoku Shodan or Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan). In Ashihara Karate we have
Shoshin kata (Beginner's kata) - This gives the student the basis to which all other Kata in the Syllabus are derived from,
Kihon kata (Basic kata) - This gives the Student a better understanding of the techniques and the use of Sabaki becomes part of the students Arsenal,
Kumite kata (Sparring kata) - This gives the student the means to put combinations together whether in the Ring on the mat or possibly outside the Dojo,
Nage kata (Throwing Kata) - this gives the Student the means to be able to throw the attacker to the ground on various attacks. It tends to use the principle of Irimi and Tenkan (Aikido) to provide a vehicle for performing the techniques
and Jissen kata (Real Combat kata) - This tends to be a bit more in close, the kata is designed for use in close distance when the attacker has gotten "in" to your guard, the use of knees and elbows is used as well as arm locking and grabbing.

Ok Back to the topic:

I agree with a lot of you that some techniques seem a little floored when shown in principle but if you tend to think about it its common sense!?!

A kick to the head - is this a extremely high kick if done o the street is quite bad for you if it is countered or is a kick to the head whilst you bring the head of the attacker to waist height or even knee height or is it the positioning 'on the ground' of an straight arm bar?

Remember a closed fist is not just a punch it is also a grab. A step forward can also be a step back. Consider the hand positions of traditional Karate punching, Oi Tsuki Dachi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yIg6pq0CPM

Now look at the standard Judo stance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSSLASOwu8

Virtually Identical!!!!

Now the push pull is creating kazushi NOT punching some one etc

Sometimes we have to look outside to see whatís already within

Every move in kata may have a dozen applications and it doesn't mean that some are wrong or some are right. Itís just a concept.

If everyone knows the movie Casino Royal where James Bond uses Naihanchi (Tekki) kata to fight the guy on the top of the crane, it shows that kata no matter if it is Modern (Ashihara) or Classical (Isshin Ryu) IS effective its just how it is perceived by the KarateKa.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434332 - 12/23/11 02:58 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
One of the problems involved in the interpretation of bunkai among "Traditionalists" is that all the SD responses are launched against karate techniques. This was even demonstrated in the video. I'm a fan of the Ashihara/Enshin method, but who uses kata techniques against hay-makers, tackles & headlocks like we find in "street incidents"? Well, I do.

I've never been involved in an incident where the attacker threw a front-kick or punched & left their strait arm suspended in space so I could grab it & throw-down w/ some fancy-schmancy movie Kung-fu.

If you look closely, you'll see how kata can teach reality responses - I like to use the Pinan kata & Annanko to demonstrate my point.

Owari


Edited by hedkikr (12/23/11 02:59 AM)
_________________________
Ed Ichihara Smith - Shukokai

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#434350 - 12/29/11 12:51 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: hedkikr]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
Originally Posted By: hedkikr


If you look closely, you'll see how kata can teach reality responses - I like to use the Pinan kata & Annanko to demonstrate my point.

Owari


And that's the great problem - I don't see any of that in any of the major Karate schools that greatly integrate Bunkai into their practice and grading requirements.

As for my previous comment about most Katas that we use today being originated from weapon Katas for just one example look at some of the movements in Ananku

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