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#435712 - 03/11/13 11:36 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 908
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Depending on the Spelling it can be either Oyo or Oyho but please see below

Ohyo kumite is the application of kihon waza or a section of kata applied in a fighting encounter to examine specific core principles at work. Its function is to physically attest the application drawn from specific parts of a kata using the physical dialogue of torimi and ukemi practice. When applied to kata, the analytical practice known as kaisetsu in wado or bunkai in Okinawan systems, seeks to uncover in more functional and graphic detail the allusive pragmatism of self defence and protection from this wellspring of kata’s physical manifesto.

http://www.wadoworld.com/technical/ohyo/ohyo.html
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435713 - 03/11/13 11:53 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
So THAT is why I have never been able to keep track of what my Aikido sensei has been demonstrating. Nice to know, finally.
Won't help my learning, tho.
I need a base technique before I can absorb variations on it.

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#435717 - 03/12/13 07:20 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Hi Dobbersky
Quote:
I practice my kata but with the fact all kata have reasons for them.


The assumption that traditional kata practicing karate-ka MUST make.

The truth is that there are no good reason and explanations given in Karate’s history.

Which commonly leads to….

Quote:
I believe that there is no wrong Bunkai for a Kata


Or, ‘what I am practicing is not, wrong’ so ‘my reason is right’

Yet…..

Quote:
I just can't accept the "karate" attacks that are practiced


Bad reason?

Quote:
many schools especially Korean Arts practice Kata/Hyungs/Poomsae/Tul/Forms just for the purpose of passing that particular grade


Bad reason?

Quote:
no thought as to why it was created in the first place


Think about it and you can come up with almost any answer you like.

Most have thought about it but the answer doesn’t fit your own.
E.g. kata is a way of remembering lots of techniques, a way of moving meditation, a way to gently keep fit in old age etc.

Quote:
at least the new Masters are rediscovering the Bunkai/Oyo of their kata using other Styles like Jujitsu, Judo, Ken(m)po and Chin Na (kung Fu) to discover what is within their own


‘Rediscover’? RE-INVENT is more accurate.

As there is no right or wrong, you will find faces in the clouds and justify your ‘reason’.

cxt
Quote:
So I was taught that the "bunkai" was a "textbook" application of a given movement in the kata.


Are there "textbook" applications? If looking at early karate applications, do they satisfy modern methods?

Prizewriter
Quote:
In short, it seems a bit of a mess


Agreed!

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#435718 - 03/12/13 07:36 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: aplant]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 908
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: aplant
Hi Dobbersky
Quote:
I practice my kata but with the fact all kata have reasons for them.


The assumption that traditional kata practicing karate-ka MUST make.

The truth is that there are no good reason and explanations given in Karate’s history.

Which commonly leads to….

Quote:
I believe that there is no wrong Bunkai for a Kata


Or, ‘what I am practicing is not, wrong’ so ‘my reason is right’

Yet…..

Quote:
I just can't accept the "karate" attacks that are practiced


Bad reason?

Quote:
many schools especially Korean Arts practice Kata/Hyungs/Poomsae/Tul/Forms just for the purpose of passing that particular grade


Bad reason?

Quote:
no thought as to why it was created in the first place


Think about it and you can come up with almost any answer you like.

Most have thought about it but the answer doesn’t fit your own.
E.g. kata is a way of remembering lots of techniques, a way of moving meditation, a way to gently keep fit in old age etc.

Quote:
at least the new Masters are rediscovering the Bunkai/Oyo of their kata using other Styles like Jujitsu, Judo, Ken(m)po and Chin Na (kung Fu) to discover what is within their own


‘Rediscover’? RE-INVENT is more accurate.

As there is no right or wrong, you will find faces in the clouds and justify your ‘reason’.

cxt
Quote:
So I was taught that the "bunkai" was a "textbook" application of a given movement in the kata.


Are there "textbook" applications? If looking at early karate applications, do they satisfy modern methods?

Prizewriter
Quote:
In short, it seems a bit of a mess


Agreed!


With respect Mr "Aplant" I don't need my posts checked for grammar or content etc. Rather than pick it apart can you not just add something useful to the thread, thanks
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435719 - 03/12/13 07:52 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Oh and to answer your questions directly! laugh

I am happiest thinking of kata bunkai as responses to common violence. This is possibly due to my old karate clubs focus on self defence. I always enjoyed kata but have to acknowledge the 'poetic license' I allow when applying bunkai.

I too do not 'like' karate attack based bunkai. I acknowledge I would be a hypocrite to say it was wrong or I was right though. I can though see reasons why it is practiced. For one, it allows for safe and basic practice. Also it should be noted that not only 'low competence' places teach bunkai in this manner. I have seen it taught at very respectable karate dojo's.

Interesting that you say nobody steps forward and punches, so why teach it, when that exact movement is so prevalent in kata.

My main problem is with kata being 'heart' of karate, even though it's purpose and application are so vague and in fact unknown. (I'm sure some will claim this its strength!!!!!!!)

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#435720 - 03/12/13 08:01 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
While I'm still here.
Quote:
With respect Mr "Aplant" I don't need my posts checked for grammar or content etc. Rather than pick it apart can you not just add something useful to the thread, thanks


I did not check your grammar!? confused

If you don't want people to comment on the content of your posts, on what do you want them to comment?

I feel I did contribute something. Re-read perhaps?

With Respect.

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#435721 - 03/12/13 08:43 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: aplant]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 908
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: aplant
Oh and to answer your questions directly! laugh

I am happiest thinking of kata bunkai as responses to common violence. This is possibly due to my old karate clubs focus on self defence. I always enjoyed kata but have to acknowledge the 'poetic license' I allow when applying bunkai.

I too do not 'like' karate attack based bunkai. I acknowledge I would be a hypocrite to say it was wrong or I was right though. I can though see reasons why it is practiced. For one, it allows for safe and basic practice. Also it should be noted that not only 'low competence' places teach bunkai in this manner. I have seen it taught at very respectable karate dojo's.

Interesting that you say nobody steps forward and punches, so why teach it, when that exact movement is so prevalent in kata.

My main problem is with kata being 'heart' of karate, even though it's purpose and application are so vague and in fact unknown. (I'm sure some will claim this its strength!!!!!!!)



Now I enjoyed reading this post, good points put forward

I don't teach the step forward and punch Karate, I'm Ashihara Karate not Shotokan or Shukokai etc. Also I don't believe the more kata youi have the better your style, I think the less the better.

Regards to Kata being the heart of Karate I would say yes it is but I think the Kihon or Basics are the heart of Karate as without them Kata is unworkable.

No I missed what style you study so would love to know what context your point comes from
Originally Posted By: aplant
My main problem is with kata being 'heart' of karate, even though it's purpose and application are so vague and in fact unknown. (I'm sure some will claim this its strength!!!!!!!)



I myself have used aspects of MY Ashihara Kata on many occasions in street situations and as they are Jissen (Real Combat) Kata they are perfectly suited although its through the study of traditional kata and bunkai which has allowed me to look at the Ashihara Kata in a different light so this is why I would say Kata is the heart of Karate. I teach Karate for the streets not for trophies
thanks
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435731 - 03/14/13 12:30 PM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Quote:
I don't teach the step forward and punch Karate, I'm Ashihara Karate not Shotokan or Shukokai etc.


I don’t have any experience with Ashihara karate. I see that it has a Kyokushin background, which do have kata’s with ‘stepping punches'.

Quote:
Also I don't believe the more kata youi have the better your style, I think the less the better.


I hear this a lot from TMAist. A Bruce Lee 'less is more' hang up perhaps.
You have 16 kata on your syllabus and would like no more than 10?
Sounds like you could easily cut down.

Quote:
Regards to Kata being the heart of Karate I would say yes it is but I think the Kihon or Basics are the heart of Karate as without them Kata is unworkable….. I would say Kata is the heart of Karate. I teach Karate for the streets not for trophies


Hmm? Lets forget the heart of karate thing for now :-)

I would have thought you or your students would take part in tournaments with the styles Kyokushin background?

Quote:
I myself have used aspects of MY Ashihara Kata on many occasions in street situations and as they are Jissen (Real Combat) Kata they are perfectly suited although its through the study of traditional kata and bunkai which has allowed me to look at the Ashihara Kata in a different light…..


As I said I don’t know Ashihara, but looked up a youtube video of ‘jissen kata sono ichi’(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw05MXzJoTE).

I don’t know if this is that same (or similar) kata you are referring to, so please correct me if it is not.
There seems to me little room for interpretation in this form. I assume it is relatively recently invented? There is presumably good first-hand information about application and intent from the ‘creator’.

Again, excuse my ignorance of Ashihara, but if this is a ‘real combat’ kata, what are your other kata?

Quote:
… although its through the study of traditional kata and bunkai which has allowed me to look at the Ashihara Kata in a different light…..


Very interesting. With regards to your thread title, how did you go about studying the bunkai of traditional kata?

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#435758 - 04/15/13 03:03 PM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: iaibear]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
That's my interpretation, too, iaibear. I've also heard the word "hinka" to describe a middle ground between bunkai and oyo.

In Isshinryu we are strongly encouraged to ask questions and come up with new bunkai/oyo. After all - as my sensei puts it - we aren't trying to build robots. Without bunkai and oyo, you've just learned a dance.
_________________________

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#435760 - 04/16/13 09:54 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Ironfoot]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 908
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Ironfoot
That's my interpretation, too, iaibear. I've also heard the word "hinka" to describe a middle ground between bunkai and oyo.

In Isshinryu we are strongly encouraged to ask questions and come up with new bunkai/oyo. After all - as my sensei puts it - we aren't trying to build robots. Without bunkai and oyo, you've just learned a dance.


Ironfoot, Was it you who trained with Brad, an Ashihara USA Karateka, a few years back?
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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