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#435701 - 03/08/13 07:55 AM Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how?
Dobbersky Offline
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 905
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All

I myself love Bunkai and Oyo. I practice my kata but with the fact all kata have reasons for them.

We have 16/7 Kata in my Syllabus, If I had a Choice there would be no more than 10.

If you practice Bunkai/Oyo, do you practice it against "karate" attacks?

For me I believe that there is no wrong Bunkai for a Kata BUT I just can't accept the "karate" attacks that are practiced around the world. NOBODY steps forward and punches ever so why teach it?

I use my Kata as a form of Stand up grappling more akin to Chin Na or Okinawan Kenpo than typical Mainstream Karate & Jujitsu.

I know many schools especially Korean Arts practice Kata/Hyungs/Poomsae/Tul/Forms just for the purpose of passing that particular grade, with no thought as to why it was created in the first place. Some Schools even have 40+ kata but can't practice Bunkai because they have too many things to practice.

The Old masters probably only knew 4-6 kata total but its the younger generations adding this and that from the various older masters that have given the situation as it is now.

Nobody questioned theire Instructor as to the why, what, when, how etc of the techniques they were taught unless the master Trusted their student enough to teach it. Therefore with a gap of a generation at least the new Masters are rediscovering the Bunkai/Oyo of their kata using other Styles like Jujitsu, Judo, Ken(m)po and Chin Na (kung Fu) to discover what is within their own

What are your thoughts on this?
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#435702 - 03/09/13 09:31 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Hey Ken

Not a karate person per se, like every man and his dog I did a few classes way back when. That said I do enjoy reading martial arts history.

The old Chinese saying goes "The further you go from the source of the river, the muddier the water gets". As you mention, the divergent interest in karate meant that a lot of ideas and philosophies were added for different reasons, not always to do with martial effectiveness.

It is well documented the effects Japanese militarisation had on Shotokan. Given that Shotokan was the parent of so many other popular styles of karate (and TKD), inevitably the residue of those divergent interests still exist. Another problem for karate, is, as you say, the culture (as with many TMA) to not question what was going on or why things were done in a certain way.

When you combine all that, you get 21st century karate: Kata for the sake of kata and people having to re-construct what went on in order to make their karate more relevant to what it is they want to use karate for.

In short, it seems a bit of a mess lol!


Edited by Prizewriter (03/09/13 09:31 AM)
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#435703 - 03/09/13 09:34 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
In iaido I practice using Bunkai for every kata. There are dozens of them.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is/are Oyo?

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#435704 - 03/09/13 10:29 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
iai

Not sure that bunkai and oyo really apply to iaido etc. My limited understanding is that they are more used by karate folks.

Also pretty sure that there is more than a couple of ways to define the terms.

In the goju I practice "bunkai" means a 2 person exercise wwhere nearly every movement from a given kata is practiced with a resistant/fairly resistant partner--its a "set" series of movement but they are throwing hard punches and kicks that must be blocked/avoided or your going to get pounded. Its BOTH sides of a given kata. My guess its look pretty similer to a paired partener kata in iaido.

In many koryu weapon schools much of the practice is done like that--2 person paired practice--but its usually called "kata." Where "kata" in karate usually means a "single person individual exercise." Or something like that.

So I was taught that the "bunkai" was a "textbook" application of a given movement in the kata. The "oyo" version is--as I was taught--[b]much[/b] less "textbook" and more individual, more persoanlly "practical" application of the same movement.

As an example, if you have seen the goju kata Seisan, there is movement that "looks" like a hooking block---which it is. That might be viewed as the "bunkai" but it can easily be used as a stight thrust finger thrust to the EYES-hooking back from such a strike--that might be viewed as the "oyo" version.

Could easily be wrong--just what I was taught.

Sorry for the length. Pretty early in morning--not sure any of this is making sense. smile


Edited by cxt (03/09/13 10:33 AM)
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#435705 - 03/09/13 04:19 PM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I was hesitant to discuss kata because they are performed using, in my case, a bladed weapon, not a bokken or a shinai.

I practice kata using an iaito. My local gym lets me use their aerobics room, hard wood floors, mirrors all around.

As I said, there are dozens of kata. Because of the physical danger that could be involved, all my kata are practiced using bunkai. The attacker is imaginary, but very real to me.

A bunkai will determine if I am sitting or standing, what direction the attack will come from, how many attackers there are, where they are and their moves relative to my position.

They started it and, according to the script, I finish it.


Edited by iaibear (03/09/13 04:34 PM)

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#435707 - 03/10/13 06:28 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Kata in Judo is essentially just practicing a single pre-determined throw or lock. Dangerous techniques, e.g. standing joint locks, punches and kicks which are banned in randori are still taught in kata. Also, Judo kata are very short, only a few movements ending with a throw, choke or joint lock.

There's really no need to imagine a partner since all kata are performed with a real partner (who usually take turns to perform techniques as Uke and Tori).


Edited by Leo_E_49 (03/10/13 06:29 AM)
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#435708 - 03/10/13 09:21 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I have used Google to find Oyo. No definitive definition.
Is Oyo a person, an organization or a technique?
Just call me nosy,

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#435709 - 03/10/13 05:03 PM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Dobbersky]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA

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#435710 - 03/11/13 12:08 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: harlan]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Thank you, Harlan.
Not being too fluent in interpretation, I figure that Bunkai means what the moves represent (like a script), while Oyo includes possible; variations.
Am I getting closer?

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#435711 - 03/11/13 06:19 AM Re: Bunkai/Oyo - Who does it and how? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: Leo_E_49
Kata in Judo is essentially just practicing a single pre-determined throw or lock.

There's really no need to imagine a partner since all kata are performed with a real partner (who usually take turns to perform techniques as Uke and Tori).


Ditto with Aikido Kata too.
_________________________
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