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#435663 - 01/29/13 06:05 AM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: cxt]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
CXT,
I realise a lot of this topic is relative, but having never previously considered the question in this context I thought it quite interesting. As someone who began Karate as a teenager to learn to defend myself I certainly didn't consider ANY of what we've discussed here.

I think that your friend makes a very good point about health benifits and this is a great by-product of training MA for self-defence. For this topic I am more interested in the idea that:

Quote:
I'd rather have it and NOT need it than NEED it and not HAVE it.


Which is a similar idea to Leo's:

Quote:
Since physical self defense is probably the last line of defense you have, any advantage you can get with it is valuable. This is why I think that training MA is value for money


And I'm beginning to think that we overstate the benefit of MA in this respect and also the probability of ever needing to use it.

Somewhat evident in what Leo says about probability:
Quote:
The probability of entering a violent situation can be reduced but never fully eliminated. Even with a small probability, the cost of being unable to physically defend yourself can be extremely high. Your life or the life of your loved ones could be in danger, and it's hard for most people to put a finite value to that.


Now I don't disagree with Leo, but I feel this is a hard sell for martial arts.

To my previous analogy, do you wear one of these $650 Shark Sheild devices anytime you get in the sea as you'd rather "have it and not need it" (video on that page is great scare mongering!)

And benifit:
Quote:
Martial arts are designed to apply force effectively, reducing the importance of physical size and strength.

Designed by who? reducing the importance by how much?

Quote:
It takes very little force to render someone unconscious or to break a limb

I really dislike this particular statement. I think it misleads many people who are uneducated in MA and many who ought to know better.
Quote:
...women can very effectively defend themselves, even with a size disadvantage, if they are properly trained. .....women who I train with who are a foot shorter than me are capable of throwing me while I'm resisting

But size and gender DO matter.

I know Leo doesn't think that MA will fix it for everyone and I certainly agree with him more than disagree.

But are vague and unhelpful statements like these used to justify the need and effectiveness of Martial arts?

Quote:
And yet people get widely different grades/outcomes--some get "A's", some get "B's" some get "C'" some just barely pass and some fail.

Why should martial arts be any different?


I think there is more honesty in education as it is easier to measure outcomes through exams/post education employment.

A school doesn't tell a 'F' grade student they can get an 'A'
A school doesn't tell a pupil who wants to be an accountant to study Art, PE and Philosophy!
A school has tried and tested methods which are revised and reviewed regularly.

So with regards to general Martial arts practice:

-How many clubs/styles/associations think they do not teach effective self defence? (Or how many think they teach effective SD when they clearly do not?)
-How many would turn away a pupil who stated that their only reason for training was self defense?
-How many would give a genuine advice about (or have knowledge of) free alternatives to MA training? (as has been discussed) here)
-How many give realistic expectations about self defence abilty? (Can this be done?)

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#435664 - 01/29/13 06:29 AM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: aplant]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Aplant

I discussed something similar a good while ago. After a bit of fishing, here is the thread. Some of if might interest you. Basically it was self-defence NOT involving MA:

http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=414362&page=1
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435665 - 01/29/13 06:32 AM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: aplant]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Some statistics to get people thinking! (All from the UK)

-Young men are at almost four times greater risk of being a victim of violence than the rest of the adult population.

-Violence impacts upon public feelings of safety: 17 per cent
of adults report that they have high levels of worry about
violent crime.

-More than 45 per cent of violent offenders are thought to be under the influence of alcohol.

-Violent crime has fallen by around nine per cent since 2002-03,
but more serious violence has not fallen by as much as less significant types of violence.

Source: http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/0708/reducing_the_risk_of_violent_c.aspx

-Throughout the last decade many more people thought that their local crime rate had been increasing than thought it had been decreasing (http://www.poverty.org.uk/87/f.png)

I found this very interesting:
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stat...-violent-crime-
Some info:
Of all violent crime:
-14% domestic violence
-16& muggings
-34% committed by acquantence
-35% by stranger

This I thought was very interesting when considering how much force one might use:
Of all violent crime:
-22% Minor injury
-42% Assault without injury
-24% Wounding

definition of wounding: Injuries include broken bones, severe bruising and severe cuts

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#435666 - 01/29/13 05:45 PM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: aplant]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
I'm guessing in some way you're looking for confirmation that MA are a worthwhile pursuit in terms of SD because that is something you keep asking about. So to summarise my opinion based on experience:


i) MA training can increase a person's ability to fight. This could be useful in a SD situation.

ii) MA can increase a person's overall spatial awareness, their ability to read body language (to an extent), and focus. All of this can be useful in identifying potentially dangerous situations.

iii) MA should be trained regularly to develop and maintain fighting skills.

iv) Training too intensely is a bad idea as it can fatigue a person or lead to injury (both of which are bad from a SD point of view). It can also be expensive. It can also lead to a person ignoring development of other SD skills (such as flight skills).

v) Many martial arts clubs are ran for profit. As such they can market to people that people "need" MA to stay safe. This is not necessarily true.

vi) If you are going to train MA for SD, train as many ranges as possible (striking, grappling, weapons etc...). It is best to become as proficent as possible in these areas. It may be best to focus at one range at a time. This depends on the person though.

v) Some form of resistance training is essential. Getting too focused on resistance training can be limiting though (e.g. people get use to fighting under certain rules or conditions that may not exist outside of class).


The human being has something called the social gene. Basically, we need each other to survive, so we don't hurt each other. That is hard-wired in to people. This hard-wiring can be short circuited in individuals, but most people are not going to attack you. It's just the way we are.

Training in MA will help you get better at fighting and/or reacting to a violent attack (assuming you are at a competent school).

My advise for you Aplant is to find a reasonably priced school or club and try it for a while. In your area boxing or judo will be cheap and easily available. These are good starting points. You will get more condfident as you train. You may find you are less concerned about being physically attacked as you train because you will feel more comfortable about how you respond to violence as you will be exposed to controlled violence in martial arts classes and you will learn how to react.

The only way to really know if it is good value for money is to go train. That is the bottom line.

Good luck!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435667 - 01/30/13 04:12 AM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: aplant]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:
Now I don't disagree with Leo, but I feel this is a hard sell for martial arts.

To my previous analogy, do you wear one of these $650 Shark Sheild devices anytime you get in the sea as you'd rather "have it and not need it" (video on that page is great scare mongering!)


A good point, it definitely is a hard sell. I think that it's a very personal decision. As I said, I train MA for sport, not self defense, but I still think that there is value for the purposes of self defense.

Quote:
Designed by who? reducing the importance by how much?


This is too difficult to answer in a single post or article. In my case, Judo was designed by Jigoro Kano and others who have followed. The reduction depends on the individual, MA they train, time spent training, teachers, etc. Again, no studies that I'm aware of have focused on this. If I had statistics I would give them to you, but I don't.

Quote:
I really dislike this particular statement. I think it misleads many people who are uneducated in MA and many who ought to know better.


I'm not sure why this fact would make you uncomfortable. I do not think it's misleading, joint locks take very little effort to apply. They hurt a lot when partially applied and result in fracture and dislocation when hyper-extended. The same can be said for chokes and strangles. I was almost choked unconscious in about 2 seconds just yesterday in training when I got caught in one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_choke. I tapped immediately. Denying the risks involved with such techniques would be irresponsible and misleading, such techniques should be treated with care.

Quote:
But are vague and unhelpful statements like these used to justify the need and effectiveness of Martial arts?


They are vague because I don't want to name individuals who I train with. At least 10 women have successfully thrown me over the course of my 3 years training a grappling MA. I think that if they can throw someone of my weight and height who is resisting, they have better chances of being able to physically defend themselves if they need to.

Quote:
I think there is more honesty in education as it is easier to measure outcomes through exams/post education employment.

-How many clubs/styles/associations think they do not teach effective self defence? (Or how many think they teach effective SD when they clearly do not?)


Where are you asking this about? Surely you don't expect us to know this information worldwide.

My Dojo doesn't teach Judo as self defense, we only train sport Judo. There is a Jujitsu class which covers some of that sort of thing but I'm not involved with Jujitsu any more.

Quote:
-How many would turn away a pupil who stated that their only reason for training was self defense?


You mean, if they are not a self defense focused school? My Dojo would direct the student to training Jujitsu. I think it depends on how money-minded the instructors are.

Quote:
-How many would give a genuine advice about (or have knowledge of) free alternatives to MA training? (as has been discussed) here)


You'll typically find this in the RBSD schools. For example, I know of a one-off self defense class which was recently taught by a police officer which was hosted by a Krav Maga school nearby where I live. Some people I know who attended the class told me that they weren't taught any Krav Maga and only received a brochure about the school after their class finished. Definitely doesn't seem like too much marketing to me.

Quote:
-How many give realistic expectations about self defence abilty? (Can this be done?)


It can be done, but I think it rarely is. I think that a person's chances are slim if they are surprised. You should only have to engage in physical self defense if you're cornered or surprised (avoidance and awareness should take care of the other cases in theory). That said, people have survived confrontations where they had to fight their way to safety (there are some mentioned in the SD forums and you see them in the papers every so often).

Thanks for posting those statistics, you'll find similar stats for the USA in the sticky post at the top of the self defense forum.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/30/13 04:34 AM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#435669 - 01/30/13 09:51 AM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: Prizewriter]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
I'm guessing in some way you're looking for confirmation that MA are a worthwhile pursuit in terms of SD because that is something you keep asking about.


I'm simply interested in others' views on the matter and in challenging some widely held ideas which may have been accepted too easily.

I don't need any 'confirmation'.

The thread you linked to is an excellent read btw. Thank you for fishing it out!

I also share your opinions expressed.

Originally Posted By: prizewriter
we don't hurt each other. That is hard-wired in to people. This hard-wiring can be short circuited in individuals, but most people are not going to attack you. It's just the way we are.


Again completely agree. I feel this is the undersold information in martial arts and society.
MA in general tends to overstate the danger of violence. The press in particular can make us feel like we going to get knifed if we dare look at someone with their coat hood up! This is shown in the stats where people believe that their local areas are becoming more dangerous when in fact violent crime is decreasing.

So with regards to the topic. I wonder if people would invest so much (time and effort as well as money) if they had better understood the reality.

Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Training in MA will help you get better at fighting and/or reacting to a violent attack (assuming you are at a competent school).


In my expereince EVERY school would consider themselves competent to deliver self defence training.

And so I'd like this thread I question the widely held notion:
Quote:
Since physical self defense is probably the last line of defense you have, any advantage you can get with it is valuable. This is why I think that training MA is value for money



Originally Posted By: prizewriter
My advise for you Aplant ....


Thank you but I am not after training advice, at least not on this thread! I have recently moved locations and was surprised by prices so thought to comment. FYI I found a Boxing club to train at.


Edited by aplant (01/30/13 11:02 AM)

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#435670 - 01/30/13 10:53 AM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: Leo_E_49]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Thanks for taking time to reply Leo.

Quote:
A good point, it definitely is a hard sell. I think that it's a very personal decision. As I said, I train MA for sport, not self defense, but I still think that there is value for the purposes of self defense.


What is a very personal decision? To hard sell? Either you believe that the risk is there and fair enough. Or you overstate the risk which I believe is unethical and deceitful.
I don't generally consider 'why' someone trains to be that personal a decision. I wouldn't consider any reason for training better or worse.
But the decision how someone trains can clearly be a better or worse one.

Quote:
I'm not sure why this fact would make you uncomfortable. I do not think it's misleading, joint locks take very little effort to apply. They hurt a lot when partially applied and result in fracture and dislocation when hyper-extended....Denying the risks involved with such techniques would be irresponsible and misleading, such techniques should be treated with care


I dislike the "it takes very little force...." arguement because the following statement is equally true

"It is exceptionally difficult to render someone unconscious or break their limbs"

and I would add especially if you are at a size/gender/aggression/alcohol consumption disadvantage.

I would like to know what other feel about such statements and their use to 'sell' self defence.

In training their is a need to understand how fragile the body can be especially when drilling to perfect technique etc. In training the statement holds true.

For SD it is misleading.

Quote:
They are vague because I don't want to name individuals who I train with. At least 10 women have successfully thrown me over the course of my 3 years training a grappling MA. I think that if they can throw someone of my weight and height who is resisting, they have better chances of being able to physically defend themselves if they need to.


The vagueness I was referring to is in regard to 'facts' such as 'only a small amount of force is required', 'I've been thrown by a woman', 'Something is better than nothing' and 'apply force effectively, reducing the importance of physical size and strength' and so on.

These are the statements which are put out and lend to the MYTHS of self defence. Most are true and all are misleading.

I understand why these are used. I understand "Slightly increase your chances of overcoming a larger, aggressive attacker" will not be the title of a best selling SD DVD series. But we should be able to talk honestly on a MA forum.

Quote:
Where are you asking this about? Surely you don't expect us to know this information worldwide.

My Dojo doesn't teach Judo as self defense, we only train sport Judo. There is a Jujitsu class which covers some of that sort of thing but I'm not involved with Jujitsu any more.


Well I would like you to do your research before replying. (Joke)
The question was ment to be rhetorical (though I didn't make that clear). I suspect 99% of MA's think they do a good job with self defence. This is at least in part to the notion that 'something is better than nothing' (which is very possibly untrue)

Your Judo club could be an exception.
Is the Jujitsu class part of the Judo club? Same instructors etc?

The RBSD school free course sounds like a great thing from what you describe. I don't see too much of that. I think that would be a good thing if more common.

Quote:
It (give students realistic expectations of ability) can be done....


Interesting. How do you think realistic expectations can be given? Especially to say a small woman?

Cheers.

note. I feel like I am victimising small women, just an easy example.

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#435671 - 01/30/13 04:12 PM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: aplant]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Well, good to know you found somewhere to train. Apologies for any confusion, I was inferring you wanted confirmation based on this and the other thread you created. My misunderstanding.

Originally Posted By: aplant

I'm simply interested in others' views on the matter and in challenging some widely held ideas which may have been accepted too easily.

Again completely agree. I feel this is the undersold information in martial arts and society.
MA in general tends to overstate the danger of violence. The press in particular can make us feel like we going to get knifed if we dare look at someone with their coat hood up! This is shown in the stats where people believe that their local areas are becoming more dangerous when in fact violent crime is decreasing.


Quite right. If people stopped to think that they've been on planet earth for 10000 or 15000 days,yet not 1 of those days have they ever been in a life of death situation, they would probably be a less fearful of attack. Media do blow these things out of proportion, as to MA schools looking to make money.

Another point I would make is that this perceived sense of perpetual danger often evaporates after someone goes to MA classes for a few months. They fell more comfortable around violence and feel more confident in general.

Originally Posted By: aplant

So with regards to the topic. I wonder if people would invest so much (time and effort as well as money) if they had better understood the reality.



To be honest Aplant, the only people I know who have stuck with a certain MA more than 3 years are people who developed a genuine passion and love for what they were doing. If a person is simply afraid of being attacked, that motivation is unlikely to sustain a lifetime of study of a MA (unless that person has a high risk of being attacked because of their job, e.g. a prison guard).
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435672 - 01/30/13 08:34 PM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: aplant]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: aplant
Thanks for taking time to reply Leo.


You're welcome.

Quote:
What is a very personal decision?


The decision to spend time training for self defense.

Quote:
Either you believe that the risk is there and fair enough. Or you overstate the risk which I be is unethical and deceitful.


It's not that simple. Even if I consider the risk to be low, I may be justified in preparing for it. If you don't consider utility theory, then there would be little value in preparing for any disaster. Probability alone is not sufficient to estimate the value of disaster preparation.

Quote:
I dislike the "it takes very little force...." arguement because the following statement is equally true

"It is exceptionally difficult to render someone unconscious or break their limbs"


I was referring to force, as measured in Newtons, not ease of use.

Quote:
and I would add especially if you are at a size/gender/aggression/alcohol consumption disadvantage.

I would like to know what other feel about such statements and their use to 'sell' self defence.


I would like to point out that I am not trying to sell anything. I do not gain financially from this discussion. I am simply giving my opinion on an open forum.

Quote:
In training their is a need to understand how fragile the body can be especially when drilling to perfect technique etc. In training the statement holds true.

For SD it is misleading.


Why? Are you claiming that such techniques would be harmless or useless in SD? Perhaps your opinion is that these techniques pose no risk to an assailant (and thus pose no legal repercussions). Or that certain classes of individuals would be unable to perform them effectively? Please elaborate.

Quote:
The vagueness I was referring to is in regard to 'facts' such as 'only a small amount of force is required', 'I've been thrown by a woman', 'Something is better than nothing' and 'apply force effectively, reducing the importance of physical size and strength' and so on.

These are the statements which are put out and lend to the MYTHS of self defence. Most are true and all are misleading.


How are these myths when many people have experienced them in training, and are based on classical Newtonian mechanics? Why are these statements misleading? If you can provide me with a good explanation, I will gladly avoid mentioning these in conversation with untrained individuals.

Quote:
I understand why these are used. I understand "Slightly increase your chances of overcoming a larger, aggressive attacker" will not be the title of a best selling SD DVD series. But we should be able to talk honestly on a MA forum.


Again, I'm expressing my honest opinion and I acknowledge that I may be wrong about these issues. I am clearly not selling anything.

Quote:
Your Judo club could be an exception.
Is the Jujitsu class part of the Judo club? Same instructors etc?


They are directed to either our own Jujitsu instructor who teaches a small class or the BJJ school nearby.

Quote:
The RBSD school free course sounds like a great thing from what you describe. I don't see too much of that. I think that would be a good thing if more common.


Ask about classes at your local police department. Here in the California, it's not too difficult to find classes if you look.

Quote:
Interesting. How do you think realistic expectations can be given? Especially to say a small woman?


I'm not an expert on self defense, but I do like the idea of talking to police officers regarding local gang activity, hazardous neighbourhoods, focusing on awareness and avoidance, getting the experience of adrenaline dump using pressure drills like in an RBSD class and finally training defenses against a resisting opponents of all shapes and sizes.

I personally think that these experiences are valuable for anyone who cares about self defense.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#435673 - 01/31/13 04:43 AM Re: Price of staying safe [Re: Leo_E_49]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Just to provide a visual example of what I've encountered in Judo and BJJ as well Leo (a smaller women taking down a much bigger man), this is a clip from the MA documentary series called Samurai Spirit. In this episode, the host (Nicholas Pettas, who is 6 ft tall and 220 lbs) spars with a top Japanese female Judo player. He gets taken down twice without too much effort. Although friendly in it's nature, clearly Nicholas is trying as he is sweating and is actively trying to trip his opponent. Match starts at around 6:40

_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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