FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 34 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bartfast, ZapEm, AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc
22906 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 8
AndyLA 5
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
VDJ 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Recent Posts
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Dobbersky
08/11/14 05:03 AM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Forum Stats
22906 Members
36 Forums
35572 Topics
432478 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#435607 - 01/08/13 11:46 AM Value for Money
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
While looking for a good place to train in London I have been a little surprised by the cost of training.
This got me thinking about the value of training in any martial art.
-MMA classes seem very expensive often in their own premises with gym facilities etc.
-Kick Boxing is SO undefined and unregulated it makes finding a decent club difficult.
-Traditional Martial Arts are the cheapest option as they still often train in church halls and community centres and can require little equipment. Quality varies dramatically, as does the purpose of training.
-Judo being an well regulated Olympic sport is perhaps the best option in terms of value for money.
-Boxing. Many gyms now appear to be mod con type places with fix term contracts. My instincts tell me I've not looked hard enough here and there must be some good value places hidden to find.

When you consider joining fees of £50+, insurance, monthly fees from £40 to £100+ a month, gear (some places require you purchase their brand for more £££)and travel, it can make it difficult to justify training.

I'm sure you can still train for peanuts and get taught how to walk up and down in a line (cynical eh!)and I'm sure these places where you pay top dollar are very good.

In review I realise I sound rather mean...... but....
I would be interested to hear if you guys feel the price of your training is fair? (my bet is most do!?)
And perhaps if it is good value for someone to begin training martial arts as compared to say football or rugby?
Plus any other thoughts.

Top
#435609 - 01/09/13 12:23 PM Re: Value for Money [Re: aplant]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Interesting question/s

I'd say "value" is a somewhat "flexible" thing--you generally get what you pay for......one way or another.;)

If you value the stand-alone full equiped faclities of the MMA school you mention then its worth it.

I'd say "quality varies" pretty much everywhere.

I often tell people that investing in some shoe leather and taking the time to really look around, test-drive some classes, really get to know what is available, will pay off big later.

Martial arts is a hobby/activity that if seriously undertaken will take years to get good.

So its really important that you take the time to find a really good school that is going to be the closest to meeting your needs.

That being said I am often astonished at the cost of MA training here in the USA. So its no surprise to me that its expensive elsewhere.

IMO the cost generally has very little to do with the quality of teaching--"sometimes" it is but again IMO often it does not.



Edited by cxt (01/09/13 12:26 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#435616 - 01/12/13 08:15 AM Re: Value for Money [Re: aplant]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Hi and welcome.

Well, I'm based in NI so I know a few different folks who have trained in London. Certainly the big, sexy gyms (like Roger Gracie's Academy and Carlson Gracie Team London) are pricey.

That said, I remember reading a quote from the guy who co-runs the Carlson Gracie Team in London and he said the reason they charge what they charge is they want to build a successful team, and to do that you have to have people who are willing to make a commitment with their training, not just somone who shows up once a week.

I'd say if you're looking to try martial arts for not big money in London, check out the Judo clubs, except the Budokwai, which can be a bit pricey (although the instruction is world class). Alternatively, look at boxing clubs. Both boxing and judo are Olympic sports and get subsidised by public funding in the UK. The main knock on effect of this to grass roots clubs is that you tend to get charged less for class.

I wouldn't discout other sports though, especially rugby. People tend to think physical skills learned in MA classes are the only thing that are worth knowing in a fight. Not true. A young actor who was in a Harry Potter movie was stabbed in London a few years ago. One of his friends, a rugby player, rugby tackled the assailant to the ground so hard he knock the knife out of his hand. There are a lot of useful skills like mental toughness and fitness you get from rugby too. So don't count that out! Matt Stevens, the Saracens player, got his BJJ blue belt in 3 months because he killed everyone in BJJ class because of his rugby background. Normally it takes 2-4 years to get a blue belt in BJJ.

Just some food for thought.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#435618 - 01/12/13 04:53 PM Re: Value for Money [Re: aplant]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Aplant:

If you truly understand what you are seeking, do not stop until you find that thing. While there is absolutely nothing wrong with earning money, the danger is that becoming the fundamental goal, rather than a byproduct of training someone is problematic.

For some training is a 2 hour trip each way to someplace which they really like the people, and atmosphere, and the instruction. For others, if it is more than fifteen monutes away, its too difficult to commit the time required.

Price is relative. Do you want what I or someone else offers. If so, will you pay the prices we ask, both financial, and faith in our approach, our methods. We may be the best teachers in the known universe but, if our presentation, our specific approach does not match yours... what you want... you will not stay long.

Find the atmosphere you want, THEN consider the finance aspect.

Jeff

Top
#435620 - 01/13/13 02:07 AM Re: Value for Money [Re: aplant]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Being a Judoka, I'm a bit biased but I've had very good a experience with learning Judo. It's an extremely good grappling base, and is probably feasible as a foundation for self defense in colder countries where people wear several layers of clothing. In terms of quality, anywhere which teaches Kodokan Judo is probably going to be at least ok. Look out for places where people train to compete, they're probably going to be a little better in practice (use less compliance and more resistance). Judo is a sport and everyone has to enter competitive matches to increase in rank, so be prepared for a lot of sparring (randori).

Part of the reason I chose Judo was the price, I looked around at a few places and nothing else compares to the $65 a month I'm paying at my Dojo. I might have chosen boxing if I didn't mind getting knocked around a bit but I really don't like being hit compared to being thrown.

That all said, it depends on what you're looking for specifically (self defense, sport, fancy moves, etc) but when it comes to value for money, a good Judo club is hard to match.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/13/13 02:11 AM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#435621 - 01/14/13 10:16 AM Re: Value for Money [Re: aplant]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Some interesting points.

CXT - Agree all round. Especially with the Cost often not being indicative of quality.

CXT said
Quote:
Martial arts is a hobby/activity that if seriously undertaken will take years to get good.


I'd never really thought about this in terms of cost before. I Think I will make a new thread in the self defence section about it if anyone would like to join!

Prizewriter - Thanks for the welcome.

Quote:
I remember reading a quote from the guy who co-runs the Carlson Gracie Team in London and he said the reason they charge what they charge is they want to build a successful team, and to do that you have to have people who are willing to make a commitment with their training, not just someone who shows up once a week


I'm not sure I completely buy this. They probably charge this because they can (which is fair enough).
If their motivation is to build a successful team (in terms of bjj/mma success) surely the aim would be to attract MORE people to the gym to get the pick of the talent.
There is of course a history of successful fighters often coming from a poor background.
Dedication is important, but i don't think charging more money relates to attendance - Look at all the people who have gym membership leaving their account each month, but never attend.

LEO & Prizewriter:

Quote:
I'd say if you're looking to try martial arts for not big money in London, check out the Judo clubs....Alternatively, look at boxing clubs


Quote:
when it comes to value for money, a good Judo club is hard to match


I'm with you both here. And Leo your the least biased judoka ever!

Ronin says:
Quote:
Find the atmosphere you want, THEN consider the finance aspect


I agree with your sentiment, but realistically I don't think this is viable for many.

Take this scenario:

Lets say we have a 15 year old full of sporting potential, from a poor family, who has never done any MA is their life. They miraculously manage to navigate all the BS of the various martial arts wanting to be a top practitioner. They try all sorts of first lesson free classes. Deciding that the only class which they would be willing to dedicate them self to has a £50 joining fee, £50 induction, is £100 a month on the other side of town plus an investment in training gear is needed.

So

Top
#435625 - 01/15/13 08:34 AM Re: Value for Money [Re: aplant]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
It truly does matter "what you want" and it does not have to be great artistry.

A few years into my second Aikido dojo I finally discovered that "traditional" Aikido is taught elliptically, by infinite variations, until the full techniques on which they are based become clear.

By that time I also discovered that what I really wanted was the experience and the camaraderie.

My originally white belt is now a grayish beige, and I don't care.

Top
#435638 - 01/20/13 10:24 AM Re: Value for Money [Re: aplant]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello aplant:

The scenerio you build is unfortunately common IMHV. The place, its members, teachers are the necessary factors. If money is the bottle-neck, the "governing" issue, asking is always one option. To do so, having observed several classes, and making certain the place is somewhere we actually want to study, is a good approach.

Showing up once, we only learn a little... important none the less. The second, third times, seeing the same quality, the atmosphere you want to be a part of.. a place you want to spend long-term time.

Having watched carefully, more than a single moment gives a good impression. Fees can be waved, equipment borrowed, positive arrangements made?

Someplace that won't flex hopefully won't live long...

Jeff

Top
#435725 - 03/13/13 10:18 AM Re: Value for Money [Re: aplant]
aplant Offline
Just interested.
Member

Registered: 01/08/13
Posts: 31
Loc: UK
Not that there is much life in this thread but....

Here is an insightful article about a karate class, with thoughts on value, from a lay parents perspective:

(taken from the article)
Quote:
‘It’s a complete rip-off,’ I told Sasha when she was pleading with me to let her take the test.

‘Oh come on, Dad. We’ll look like idiots if we don’t have our red-and-white belts.’

‘On the contrary, the red-and-white belt is a sign that you’re an idiot for being suckered into this ridiculous Ponzi scheme.’


http://www.spectator.co.uk/life/status-anxiety/6827453/status-anxiety-karate-lessons/

Top
#435729 - 03/14/13 03:47 AM Re: Value for Money [Re: aplant]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I certainly agree with his opinion about that particular school. I have never heard of collection buckets in a MA school before. It's shocking for a place where they charge so much, the phrase for these kinds of places is 'McDojo'. That's not a comment on the quality of the instruction, but rather the focus on selling a product.

I would like to point out however that this is not a picture of every MA school out there. I personally failed 3 of my gradings on my way to my black belt in TKD and almost every other student failed at least once before gaining their black belt. It was a tough learning experience but even in retrospect, I think it was worthwhile.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga