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#420592 - 07/03/09 07:49 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: eyrie]
Dave5504 Offline

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 10
Gavin –
I offered my thoughts on field interaction because, based on my research, it seems the most likely explanation for the effect. An interaction of fields also describes the physical sensation from the point of the puller. As I have stated, I do not know what is happening. I have no way to measure this interaction. If this is actually electromagnetism or some other field interaction, I cannot say. I can only draw inferences based on my research and experience. Fields do interact and affect each other, and electromagnetism is one example. If you will read the research references I have provided, you will find that there are similar research experiments that have covered the energetic exchange between two people. Given the similarity to the published research, it seems like a good working hypothesis.

I guess the guy you are referring to is Dr. Oschman? I noted when I provided that link, that I offered the link so you could see that he was a credible researcher. The web site does not include his book content. In the same post I also provided two of his book titles that contain the research summaries. You have to read the books to get to the research. Just a note - these are serious research summaries, mostly in the area of quantum physics and they are a bit pricey. You may be able to find them if you are near a large university library or if not, then inter-library loan usually works. Some of the other sources I noted are more readily available, but Oschman’s books are a good place to start.

When I am teaching or doing a demo I use the phrase “stand like a reed in the wind”. Since the pull does not work if the person actively resists, there is no other way to approach this when in a class or demo setting. This does not predispose the person to going in either direction because I do not tell them whether I am going to pull or push. If you will read my post, you will see that I do both. You will also see that I have no other communication with them and that I stand behind them so they cannot see what I am doing. I have also told you that there is no trick. I just do what I described (note that I described only the pull). I am not an illusionist or magician – pretty cool stuff, but I am not trained in that area. Likewise I don’t know how to hypnotize anyone. You keep returning to the theme that there is some “trick” I am pulling and not telling you about. There isn’t. Once I have shown this to people, it tends to spread around a bit. People have done this to complete strangers in airport lines and while singing hymns in church. No “stand like a reed in the wind” there – although they do get some interesting responses. I would encourage you not to fix on the ‘trick” explanation, but to actually go to the resources I have mentioned. It will take some time, but why not read them?. They will fill out the knowledge you are already obviously building about subtle energies.

Gavin & Eyrie -
This post started out as a question about how to do an energy pull – there was no implication that this method, as it is presented, is a viable combat technique – not by me or by the original poster. If you wish to introduce a different topic, I would suggest that starting a new post would be cleaner.

What I did say, is that knowledge of the human energy system is valuable to the internal martial artist. As Gavin points out “the body and universe itself have many subtle energies that make up the whole and the field of biodynamics is making huge leaps in documenting holistic bodily communications through the fluids and tissues of the body”. As an internal martial artist (I assume you are, since this is the Internal Arts Forum), doesn’t it benefit you to understand the “subtle energies” that Gavin refers to? Isn’t the knowledge and use of these energies at least part of what differentiates the Internal from the External martial artist?

I have noticed that there is a generalization of the energy pull as “no-touch stuff” - as if all energy techniques can be placed in a single basket. This is not the case. Whether we are healing or hurting, there are many different avenues of using energy. To lump them all together makes it even more difficult to sort out how one method or the other might work.

Eyrie – You said “I can't see how any of this would be practically useful martially or otherwise.”
The relationship of energetic fields is at the core of Traditional Chinese Medicine. A simple example would be Five-element theory. As an Internal Martial Artist do you not use the knowledge of the healing arts in your practice?

#420594 - 07/03/09 08:44 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
David you have used a lot of words to say almost nothing at all. You do not have to be an illusionist to employ the techniques that I have suggested - many employ the subtle 'unseen' communication and suggestion that are used in shows without knowing. My own research into the subject has shown that is nothing more than the manipulation of the mind. My path of reasoning logically tells me to research everything regarding a subject rather than just the evidence that backs my opinion up. If there are people who are able to produce the same result I can, but better I would want to know how they are doing it. People like Derren Brown are producing better and more consistent results then any Chi person. I would feel obligated to understand their methods before I started to teach this stuff.

As someone who spent the best of 4 years becoming qualified within the field of Shiatsu 5 element theory and TCM were heavily featured in my course. I do not use an ounce of tcm in my treatments nowadays OR in my tai chi. I have yet to meet anyone whom can explain something using TCM that is of practical use within the martial arts that I can not explain without using any mention of 5 element theory. Having trained with someone of the so called leading experts in applied 5 element theory I've yet to see anything that convinces of its need to be used as a model of observation within the arts - nothing.

As I said you can only judge someones internal skill by crossing hands with them and when you do you very quickly see the results. I have nothing more to say on the subject.
Gavin King
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

#420601 - 07/04/09 07:20 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Dave5504]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Originally Posted By: Dave5504
This post started out as a question about how to do an energy pull...
To which I have already responded nearly 2 years to the date, that you need a complicit assistant (See post ##367458). And to which you yourself agreed in post #420460, in your belated response to me, 2 years later, that (emphasis mine):
To do the energy pull you need a willing partner. This is a learning tool – it will not work if your partner resists (this was noted in one of the earlier responses). Your partner needs to be neutral...

And to which JKogas replied, and I concur with his assessment, if you need a complicit partner to "do" this, then how can it have any practical (i.e. martial OR otherwise) purpose, other than mystical BS? And learning to do what precisely?

So, I think it's fair to say that the thread has now evolved to a different level of discussion, don't you?

Whilst the theoretical approach of TCM is useful in understanding the particular methodology, I have to concur with Gavin here - there is NOTHING within the field of martial arts or its related practices that cannot be explained in plain terms other than yin-yang and/or 5-element theory, "qi" OR "bio-energetics".

Besides, 5-element theory is just that - a "theory", albeit an archaic theory, describing the supportive and opposing relationships between "elements" with specific qualities or properties, and the inter-relationship between the "elements" of nature and man. It is NOT specifically about "energy" or energy fields, although I can see why it tends to be inferred.

"Energy" is simply a convenient English metaphor, albeit an inaccurate one, for the etheric "quality" known as "qi" - a word which only has contextual meaning within the Chinese and Japanese cultures. I can tell you this because I am a native-speaking Chinese... "qi" means a lot of different things, depending on contextual use - none of which actually mean "energy". At best, the word "qi" itself literally means "air" or "breath" (again depending on context)... but not "energy" - so any translation/transliteration of the word to mean the same "thing" as "energy", is not meant to be treated as a literal translation.

Of course we all put out a small EMF... but it's so small it's virtually useless for anything practical. Sure you can affect a person's EMF (within average human parameters) - only IF they are OPEN to it, which we both already agree. Bodyworkers who haven't studied TCM will also tell you the same thing - treatments work better if the patient is receptive to it.

So, I think any further discussion regarding human bio-EMF is moot. Anyone who is interested in EMF and it's effect on humans is welcome to Google it. There's a plethora of research available out there in that regards, particularly as it pertains to EMF and low frequency EMR and why power lines and mobile phones can kill, why you need to sit at least 3m from the TV, and why using a "laptop" on your lap is not a good idea if you plan on having "normal" children. wink

In any case, "bio-energy" isn't particularly relevant to IMA training, although, it *may* be a by-product of IMA training... big difference there.

Edited by eyrie (07/04/09 07:27 AM)

#422348 - 09/14/09 07:30 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Anonymous]
Kempoman Offline

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Wow, just wow.

Dave no need to go to the JREF. I have a standing offer of $1,000 US to anyone who can move me with their (insert non-physical method here). So far no takers.

You simply stop me from walking up and pouring a glass of water on your head. With whatever chi/qi/energy/pink-unicorn-powah! that you choose. If you get wet...I win.

It simply can't be done without the use of a confederate or through the use of NLP/Trance like Derren does. NLP/Trance can cause this effect and typically does so in the cases of master/student.

I have crossed hands with some of the best IMA guys in the states and although it seems magical, it isn't.

BTW kempoman in London Sep 29th - Oct 3rd.
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

#422353 - 09/15/09 02:12 AM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Kempoman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Originally Posted By: Kempoman

BTW kempoman in London Sep 29th - Oct 3rd.

Yes my Yank friend I know... confirm the date of our meet up so I can pencil it in the diary. Bossman (Steve) has said he'll pop along if he's free too! cool
Gavin King
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

#431453 - 02/05/11 03:21 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
a bit refreshing to see many have come down to earth on this topic. smile

#431739 - 03/15/11 03:09 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Ed_Morris]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3403
Loc: MiddleEarth
LOL I'm surprised its still here.....
Sword maiden

#432383 - 05/14/11 10:39 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: Reiki]
47MartialMan Offline

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Earth? Mother Earth, the universal force of all force

#435600 - 12/27/12 06:06 PM Re: ki, chi, qi energy pull [Re: 47MartialMan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
hoping to finally get the last word on this topic smile
"Qi energy" is a mental construct used as a learning tool for getting the feel for intended technique. It's not a measurable energy in the scientific sense. although leading people to believe that it really is an untapped supernatural energy is easier to sell....martial and healing arts alike.

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