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#435298 - 06/15/12 08:43 AM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: Chen Zen]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
A "character" for sure. My exercise of virtue is much like my martial arts... mostly theoretical and apt to crumble when facing a resisting opponent. wink
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#435299 - 06/15/12 12:02 PM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: oldman]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The thread has brought about a new question for me. If these things arent to be taught, if we are to assume that these things are simply issues for the individual to explore, then how do we feel about said student using his skills in a less than honorable manner?

If you have prior knowledge of this do we teach anyway? Knowing that johhny wants revenge against the man who raped his sister, for example or perhaps he plansto use this knowledge to rob or hurt people himself. If we have prior knowledgedo we teach and if we dont haveprior knowledge, do we stop when we learn of these things or try to prevent them in the first place?
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
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#435300 - 06/15/12 12:03 PM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: Chen Zen]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Tried to send you a message Oldman but your box is too full.
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
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#435301 - 06/15/12 02:48 PM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: Chen Zen]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Chen Zen

re: post # 435299

Sometimes I think that is exactly why the old timers were so adament about not teaching people with "poor character"--whatever that term might mean to whomever is teaching.

I imagine that we have all seen that rather than the martial arts creating "better people"--which for some it certainly does--BUT for others it just makes them tougher, stronger, better trained bullies and ego-monsters.

Maybe they knew the chances of really changing people were really pretty small and they tried the best they could to keep their teachings from the ones they thought they could not help.

In your example--back in the day "revenge" might well have been seen a "proper" motive with much support from socitey at large (depending of course on region, time period, culture etc.)

I've often though that one of the reasons the really dangerous stuff takes so long to get to in many traditional systems is that the teachers want to have the chance to CLOSELY observe their students for a period of years to determine exactly whom they were teaching.

IMO its not that "traditional" systems "take too long" its that many of them are using a very different approach in what they teach and to whom.

There are of course any number of people that abuse it and simply want to string the paying customer along for as long as possible--or worse.

And for the "masters" that abuse and take advantage of their students---well now we are back to square one in terms of martial arts as "character development." frown
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#435303 - 06/15/12 11:38 PM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: Chen Zen]
hope Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
Knowing that johhny wants revenge against the man who raped his sister, for example or perhaps he plans to use this knowledge to rob or hurt people himself. If we have prior knowledge do we teach and if we don't have prior knowledge, do we stop when we learn of these things or try to prevent them in the first place?


As responsible people, I assume we'd call police if we had evidence of violent crimes or threats to commit them. IMHO, we should also avoid training people (providing the tools) to accomplish those plans. If a student in this situation was a longtime member of a dojo, I assume an instructor would wish to discuss with the student why s/he was being excluded. Would this hold in other readers' dojos?
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#435304 - 06/16/12 02:38 AM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: hope]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ah but by then couldnt that be considered "too little too late"? After all isnt prevention always best?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435314 - 06/20/12 07:45 PM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: Chen Zen]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Chen Zen:

Some day perhaps we shall be able to meet and have a soda, some tea, discuss these things in person! grin

===============================
DIGNITY, maturity, humility... fundamental qualities entirely absent, non existent from most TV presentations: American football, TV wrestling, MMA...

The ability to hurt, be hurt is something that all of them possess. Hurting is the lowest, simplest skill. There is no evidence of any emotional maturity, or simple humility which makes the ART component of any true martial arts practice in any of those activities. The emotional control is core to serious traditional practice.

The ability to hurt someone any three year old child can do quite easily with the right circumstances. MMA are simply older, wearing childish billboards, pompous tattoos....
Can they hurt me... probably. Would I ever have a single one to a family dinner... not likely.

Getting hurt is really easy. Learning to do it easier. But having the mental self control, the emotional maturity to remain in control of yourself. Be conscious about your abilities, your weaknesses that requires a long time, and daily practice to explore deeply.

Doing something that is not easy, or that you already can do, and still want to improve the skill/technique... still are interested in looking closer day after day.... these are traditional qualities.

I do not care if "you" (generic) win. How you conduct yourself during/after the combat for me is far more important. Pumping your arm, jumping up and down, dancing like an imbecile is all pure spectacle. If that is how they act, whatever the activity it is not something I ever want to witness.

It is undignified and fundamentally pathetic...
Jeff



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#435315 - 06/20/12 08:52 PM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: Chen Zen]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Chen Zen:

How are these things taught... to know HOW to drive a car, takes only a few minutes. To have serious skill at it takes far, far more time, TMA are identical in that manner.

Learning the nuances, the subtleties how to handle the different class personalities,intensities as training partners demands the most time you can give the activity. Done only once in a while, you will not understand how to cope too easily. You will use an impulsive unconscious responses, rather than technical ones, active choices.

Given enough time, given enough partners, we look at ourselves, our weaknesses and make a basic choice. Stay or leave. Every time we do return, we've made that basic choice. We may get shown a weakness(es) about ourselves, by someone smarter, faster, far more skilled than us on some level. With a decent teacher (positive/healthy motives), good classmates our excuses, our emotional disconnects, get uncovered, revealed. The basic reason (pick one...) I cannot X is not because of my age, but because I'm too concerned about winning, and if I am not once I realize it, I hesitate, pause, get mad, and then get slaughtered because I take my mind off the fight angry about the perception "not winning" in that second.

Helping someone figure out their head space as relates to practice combat is one of the reasons this stuff is a lifetime thing IMHV. Figuring things out takes an insane amount of time and energy. Don't need to know my childhood history, my dreams only that the way my mind processes things, the way my body reacts because of how we process, think, react... improving that, changing it, exploring it needs time.

If you teach me how to kick, and I used the technique on my dog, is that YOUR fault, I did so? I do not believe so beyond a small point. If you learn I did something wrong with what you taught me... if I want more instruction from you, IMHV you are required to point out, if I wish to continue then I must not do X ever again.... for stopping myself, changing what you ask you will then continue my instruction, improve my skills.

If we teach someone to hurt another person, and they do so with no thought... we bear some burden. As the original source of their information, their technical understanding/ability I feel some responsibility for the outcome.

If you are dangerous to your training partners. You cannot stay. If you are dangerous to other people, stupid how/when you use our techniques.. a judgement is necessary. Can you alter my path, change the direction which I intended to use this knowledge originally... hopefully.

Uncovering the stuff, the hidden truths below the surface for everybody time is necessary. Why are you here... being abused? Are an abuser? Want to build emotional confidence for/against something you believe/perceive?

Not simple things to discover. Can I use knowledge badly, sure. The trick is not to do so more than once >: > ! If that once does occur, why did it happen? Should it not have occurred? Should it have been entirely, completely avoidable?

Being a decent teacher is more than teaching the physical part. When , why, how are far harder things to learn...

Jeff

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#435324 - 06/23/12 12:41 AM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: Ronin1966]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
You bring the tea,Ill bring the soda,and we can chat for days my friend.Two excellent posts that mirror my own sentiments.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435327 - 06/23/12 08:24 AM Re: Character developement and values in MA [Re: Ronin1966]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Originally Posted By: Ronin1966
DIGNITY, maturity, humility... fundamental qualities entirely absent, non existent from most TV presentations: American football, TV wrestling, MMA...

The ability to hurt, be hurt is something that all of them possess. Hurting is the lowest, simplest skill. There is no evidence of any emotional maturity, or simple humility which makes the ART component of any true martial arts practice in any of those activities. The emotional control is core to serious traditional practice.


Hmmmm. Not sure if serious......?
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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