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#435513 - 10/17/12 08:38 AM Daughter coming back to Karate!
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All

I'm adding this to this and a few other Forums I'm on, but I know we don't all visit the same Forums.

My Daughter is coming back to Class after a few years break.
1 lesson a week and I will not be asking her to grade, just learn 1 kata which is at her level. If she wanted to grade then she asks my Friend and Assistant Instructor to grade her (She would then have to learn all the kata upto her level if she wanted to take her Black Belt).
When she left the class she reached Brown Belt 3rd Kyu so she will continue with Brown belt until whenever she wants to go for 2nd Kyu etc.

So why am I telling you this. Well last night she texted me telling me shes coming to my house (her mother and I are divorced) because she's been in a fight. Now my response after this was "Did she win???" not is she ok etc etc.
Now I was concerned about her but was it wrong to think that?
Now when she got home she told me the "full" story.
It was a typical teenage confrontation the "What you looking at?" blah blah blah. it did cool of she said and she started to walk away but the girl's sister got involved and they both attacked her. She knocked at least one tooth out of the first girl, her sister was just pulling and scratching at her from behind (dead brave).
I cleaned her cuts etc and said if you were training she wouldn't have been hit as much.

Now I been longing for her to carry on with her Karate and this is like an answer but even though I want her to be strong etc She's still my little girl if you know what I mean

Your thoughts please
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435514 - 10/17/12 09:28 AM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Dobb

Glad she is "ok."

Sorry that there are people llike that in the world.

And it is because there all too many people like that, that I train.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#435516 - 10/17/12 01:50 PM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: cxt]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I am glad she did well and wants to return to Karate.

My personal opinion is anyone, your daughter included, should know a few basic techniques that work for them without having to pause and decide which is "better".

And "remain aware".

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#435518 - 10/19/12 05:42 AM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: iaibear]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Well, the first lesson out of the way, she was happy with it. we worked on similar senarios of what happened to her.

Looking forward to seeing how she does etc.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435523 - 10/24/12 07:42 AM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
To be honest I've always found fear a poor reason for anyone to train. Fear of being attacked, of getting hurt... Fear leads to a negative approach to training.

It is much better to train because of the enjoyment of training. We'd all like people we know to stay safe, but as iaibear said better to learn a few moves and go over them once in a while rather than expect someone to commit to training long term. As I said, someone who trains purely out of fear won't last at training and will have a negative relationship with martial arts. The people I know who have stuck at MA for the long term are people who love training, not people who lived in state of perpetual fear.

Hope she's ok.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435524 - 10/24/12 08:55 AM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Prizewriter]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
It depends on what you are afraid of.
Speaking only for myself, I am afraid of getting old and dying.
My sincere belief is that the last twelve years, spent in a "traditional" Aikido class, have kept me alive and active. Come December, I plan on re-upping.
BTW, I did not discover Martial Arts until after retirement.

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#435526 - 10/24/12 11:57 PM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: iaibear]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
Fear moves people.. It's a primal thing..

I don't think I've ever met anyone who trained martial arts for self defense because they ''just enjoy it''

Obviously you have to like the training but fear isn't a bad thing all in itself.

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#435531 - 10/25/12 06:41 AM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Matakiant]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Thank you for your posts, OSU
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435533 - 10/26/12 11:36 AM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Dobbersky]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I'm glad that she's safe. The way you feel is only natural, I'm sure that in your position I'd feel the same. That said, you shouldn't take that approach in teaching self defence. Awareness and avoidance first, violence as a risky last resort.

There are many people who start training martial arts for self defence and go on to a lifetime of study. Imho, any reason to start is a good reason.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#435534 - 10/26/12 01:33 PM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Leo_E_49]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
Just to be the devils advocate here, since this is something that bothers me often.

''Awareness and avoidance''

Yes that's fine, but what many people who preach this need to realize is that something can happen regardless of the neighbourhood/establishments you frequent and the time of day.

Awareness of the two is actually more important, but violent criminals often use tactics that can get even a well trained or suspicious individual to lower their guard for a brief moment.

A common method is to simply approach politely and ask for something like a smoke, the time or something else that typically requires you to go through your pockets or purse - even if the person declines flat out saying they don't smoke, or knowing the time without having to look at their watch typically we will be less suspicious of someone approaching us civilly and politely in speech.

Also this action gets the individual close enough to initiate an attack with little chance for the victim to simply run away.

So my point is... Avoidance is somewhat common sense - you wouldn't go walking around at night wearing a suit in the worst neighbourhood in your city, would you?

Awareness of the two is mort important but as I said before experienced violent criminals will use very effective tactics to approach you to try and catch you off guard.

So teaching self defense what matters above all else is teaching self defense techniques instead of ''fighting techniques''

The difference is very big. If there's a ''fight'' we are prepared for it or at least we get some sort of warning.

A self defense technique is in response to an attack we have no warning for. Someone blitzing you, someone grabbing you from behind, grabbing a limb, threatening with a weapon and so on.

So of self defense in general ''awareness and avoidance'' is an introduction course, 1% of the formula. When we have to defend ourself we need to use our weapons wether they are effecient techniques or fast legs, being avoidant & aware wont get you out of a situation that is already occuring.

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#435540 - 10/31/12 10:06 PM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Matakiant]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
Just to be the devils advocate here, since this is something that bothers me often.

''Awareness and avoidance''

Yes that's fine, but what many people who preach this need to realize is that something can happen regardless of the neighbourhood/establishments you frequent and the time of day.

Awareness of the two is actually more important, but violent criminals often use tactics that can get even a well trained or suspicious individual to lower their guard for a brief moment.


Firstly, I'm no SD expert so take what I say with a grain of salt. A lot of what I'm saying is repeated from GT, MacYoung and Rory Miller. Their arguments make a lot of sense to me.

I fully agree that awareness is the more important of the two, which is why I list awareness first. The point is not to completely protect yourself from predators using only awareness and avoidance, but rather to make yourself a harder target. This might put you at less of a disadvantage when you do need to physically defend yourself.

Originally Posted By: Matakiant
A common method is to simply approach politely and ask for something like a smoke, the time or something else that typically requires you to go through your pockets or purse - even if the person declines flat out saying they don't smoke, or knowing the time without having to look at their watch typically we will be less suspicious of someone approaching us civilly and politely in speech.

Also this action gets the individual close enough to initiate an attack with little chance for the victim to simply run away.


Part of awareness is realising that this is happening and not being comfortable with people getting in your personal space. It's not impossible to train this, and certain small changes to your stance, automatically putting up a fence and even something as small as looking them up and down to check for weapons might deter an attack. Anything you can use to your advantage in a social predatory setting like this seems to me to be useful for SD.

Originally Posted By: Matakiant
So my point is... Avoidance is somewhat common sense - you wouldn't go walking around at night wearing a suit in the worst neighbourhood in your city, would you?

Awareness of the two is mort important but as I said before experienced violent criminals will use very effective tactics to approach you to try and catch you off guard.

So teaching self defense what matters above all else is teaching self defense techniques instead of ''fighting techniques''

The difference is very big. If there's a ''fight'' we are prepared for it or at least we get some sort of warning.

A self defense technique is in response to an attack we have no warning for. Someone blitzing you, someone grabbing you from behind, grabbing a limb, threatening with a weapon and so on.

So of self defense in general ''awareness and avoidance'' is an introduction course, 1% of the formula. When we have to defend ourself we need to use our weapons wether they are effecient techniques or fast legs, being avoidant & aware wont get you out of a situation that is already occuring.


I will just point out that without noticing that you are in danger, no self defense technique will work. If you are already bleeding from a knife wound you didn't see coming, your response will potentially be weakened. Watching the space around you, distances to people and likely predators improves your chances of avoiding physical self defense and the associated legal repercussions. The more advance warning you have of an attack, the better your chances of survival.

As to the technical training you suggest, it certainly sounds good to me. I don't train that way, because I'm in a sport MA, but if I were focused on SD, I would probably choose that route.

Avoidance, as you said, is just common sense.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#435543 - 11/04/12 05:21 AM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Leo_E_49]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
The fence concept is a good one, and logical.

But keeping a fence in every day life is not as easy as some might think, but regardless you made some decent points I just wanted to get that ''off my chest'' so to speak, since there seem to be a lot of people who advocate awareness & avoidance so much that it seems the most important things keep getting forgotten or they go no further than just being fancy catch phrases for some in MA.

Culture also comes to play here a lot... In a lot of countries what I or You might consider as ''invading my personal space'' is completely normal and actually expected.

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#435545 - 11/04/12 12:46 PM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Dobbersky]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ken:

Truly glad to hear she escaped with no serious injuries. To answer you directly, I don't think its too abnormal as a parent to feel one way, as a karateka, a teacher of karate to also think WOW, was that a great/horrible punch or a situation she might/could have handled differently type of deal...

Understand the paradox, but don't think its a serious problem. Any after effects from the incident?

Jeff

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#435548 - 11/04/12 04:01 PM Re: Daughter coming back to Karate! [Re: Matakiant]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
My childhood was a long while ago. I was always the big lunky new kid.
A "fence" was not strong enough to keep the bullies off. I needed a wall. It look years to dismantle it.
MA was not available in Jr. High. Sport Fencing was. Just found my old foil in the basement. Ah, those were the days.

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