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#435440 - 09/05/12 06:45 AM Kata X Dai and Sho
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All

I have a question and as I don't practice "traditional" martial arts I'm looking to you guys to give me the answers.

We have various Kata that are practiced that have a "Dai" & a "Sho" variant to the Kata. What is the reason for this, are they completely different Kata or 2 Kata created from one major Kata.

The Kata that follow this concept that come to mind are:

Bassai Dai & Bassai Sho
kanku Dai & Kanku Sho
Gojushiho-Dai & Gojushiho-Sho

And Albeit a few others that some could add themselves

Thanks
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435441 - 09/06/12 06:33 PM Re: Kata X Dai and Sho [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Dobb

Not sure there is a hard and fast answer--specific traditions might be able to tell "for sure" about a specific kata in their tradition.

What I have been told--which may or may not be wholly accurate. smile

1-As you suggested some of the kata--the Heian/Pinan series comes to mind as "some" of them are reputedly a single kata that was broken into several kata for some purpose way back in the day.

Oddly enough I have heard the same about the tekkei/Nihanchi series as well.

2-Some of the them are "supposed" to because they were done that way by different, highly skilled/important people in the early days of the art. As in "master x does it a bit differently because he focused on X, or he was large and strong or small and fast. So the 2 kata reflect the personal applications of a specific person.

That may or may not be the truth--while true many experts perform the same kata somewhat differently the tendency is often to "standardize" the kata for given style. SO whatever personal "signatures" might have been present at one time may no longer be there.

2b-Also might be a "hold over" kata that someone back in the day learned from a "sister" style. As sort of "this is how they do it over in Tomari" kind of thing and over time it kinda stuck in the system.

3-Somebody, somewhere, sometime, might have thought a given kata was "too difficult" and broke it into 2 sections--the "easier" one and its "harder" section.

4-Somebody might have noticed that their particular system has "too few" kata and they thought the students might be getting bored--IMO system tend to gain kata and techniques over time. So they simply split them up or "adapted" a given kata.

4B-Also possible that some were "split up" to focus on a specific application---then you get into the bunkai/pick your term here smile of the application of the kata.

5-Could be that names have simply become lost--most of the traditional arts have been around a long time--maybe somebody could not recall what the name of some kata was so they simple stuck a NUMBER with it. Has similar or complmentary techniques so its now "Dai Ichi."

5B-Seriously, it could just be a matter of some "inside" name that everybody in the group called it so it stuck--I know living people that have been called by their nicknames so long its how EVERYBODY refers to them now---they have actual given names of course--just everybody they know uses the nickname---if it can happen to people it can happen to things. Wouldn't take very long to have everyone in a given group to start calling a kata "X" and it sticking.

6-Some of the are almost certainly listed that way because they they were desigend and created that way. It was intentional.

7-Some of the Goju kata translate to numbers--its been a question for many years with some Goju folks if the numbers ARE the actual direct translations from the Chinese. If the number are some form of "shorthand" from much longer and more creative names like "13 dragons fighting the tiger" wink and the Okinawans just called "13." Or if somebody that really didn't care WHAT you called it--they were just interested how you apply/use it just USED numbers instead.

Many/most people don't really get interested in the history and specific of their arts until later in their martial studies (ya--generalizing here) they want to study for self defense. Not all that different back in the day---by the time a student gets really/seriously interested in the minutia of the style their master is sometime dead or too far away to ask.
Not sure that many people would even ask "why is it called dai ichi/sho/dai and by the time they are good enough with the kata to care--it might well be too late to ask the person that knew.

How many stories could my grandfather have told me that I never thought to ask?

By the time I was actually interested--it was too late.

Sorry to be a downer here--just made me think about it. It might be just that simple....heck maybe THEIR teacher didn't ask either--and now your living in Okinawa or you have moved to Japan and nobody asks you...............

8-Your guess is a good mine smile Hope someone has a better idea/s than I do.


Edited by cxt (09/06/12 06:51 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#435443 - 09/07/12 10:46 AM Re: Kata X Dai and Sho [Re: cxt]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
BRILLIANT RESPONSE CXT!!!

really indepth and totally feasible
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435488 - 10/02/12 03:04 PM Re: Kata X Dai and Sho [Re: Dobbersky]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ken:

I liked Sean's answer over at Budoseek too grin

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?29921-Kata-X-Dai-and-Sho


Unfortunately my practice does not contain any of the post WW2 "additives" (sic. Japanese). But from the discussions, writings I've read on the subject primarily support the beginning version and a more difficult variation idea.

Having both versions IMHO is completely redundant. Why reinvent the wheel??? But perhaps the versions are sufficently unique couldnt say... myself am quite content with Wansu, Neihanchi, Kusanku with nothing extra added or reinvented later on. Its tough enough with them alone....

Wish I could help...
Jeff

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#435489 - 10/02/12 03:06 PM Re: Kata X Dai and Sho [Re: cxt]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello CXT:

Breath taking.... NICE!!!!

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#435506 - 10/11/12 10:58 AM Re: Kata X Dai and Sho [Re: Ronin1966]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Ronin1966
Hello Ken:

I liked Sean's answer over at Budoseek too grin

.....

Wish I could help...
Jeff


I do too, I enjoy adding sister threads on some, not all, the forums I'm on (although I do add some exclusive to a forum threads too) as it give me the chance to see a different ethos and ethics of answers. I used to be on a few but have wittled it down to just a handful now.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435510 - 10/15/12 12:44 PM Re: Kata X Dai and Sho [Re: Dobbersky]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Guys

Thank you for the tip--I liked the answers/thread over on the other site as well. smile
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#435551 - 11/10/12 09:08 PM Re: Kata X Dai and Sho [Re: Dobbersky]
shinbushi Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 2
Loc: Ohio
Much of what CXT wrote was correct. Having studied traditional Okinawan Karate for over 25 years, I have learned that most of the time the usage of "sho" and "dai" are parts of the same kata. "sho" in japanese means "small", "Dai" means "large". So the term "sho" is used to say this is a smaller version of the main kata. While "dai" is usually the full, or traditional, version of the kata. Beyond this, one shouldn't get too caught up in names though, because much of the differences in names are simply the difference between the Hogan dialect (Okinawan indigenous language) and the japanese version or translation. Like Pinan, or heian in japanese; Naihanchi, tekki in japanese; Wankan, Okan in Japanese; and many more...

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#435557 - 11/15/12 11:53 AM Re: Kata X Dai and Sho [Re: shinbushi]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Shin

Thank you for the help and info......don't do those kata sets in goju so any info from somebody that does is greatly appreciated (sp).
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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