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#435146 - 05/03/12 05:59 PM Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring?
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
This is a question for those who have practiced Chang Hon TKD and Kukki TKD. What sparring method did you prefer? I did Chang Hon style TKD for almost a year (TAGB) and went to a couple of WTF classes. Sparred in the TAGB but not in the WTF classes.

The WTF classes seemed to favour dodging/avoidance more, whereas there was more blocking/parrying in the TAGB class.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435148 - 05/04/12 09:37 AM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: Prizewriter]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
I came up in ITF/USTF school. We did the Chan Hon sparring. Back when I did tournements it was alot of fun. While I only did a couple of Kukki style matches it was kind of strange.It seemed so unnatural for your opponent to be standing there with his hands at his sides. I was almost DQed for just faking like I was gonna head punch my opponent.I didn't really enjoy the whole "playing footsy" tag thing. Then again that wasn't the style I was training in.
It just seems weird to not be concerned about catching a face punch. I've moved on to traditional Karate and enjoy it very much. I guess it all comes down to what is your motivation to train. If it is pure sport (no SD) then kukki style TKD is probably for you.However, if you want to learn some self defense and still compete in sparring the Chan Hon is a better choice. I will also qualify my statement by saying for Self defense I would use a few of my TKD techniques, but most I wouldn't. It comes down to a question of range and having a good base.


Mark

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#435154 - 05/05/12 01:01 PM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: gojuman59]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Having only done Kukki style sparring, I can't properly compare the two but I can say that Kukki style sparring emphasises the athletic ability of the practitioner over realism. I have always found this strange. This method of sparring is lots of fun, is good exercise and requires a lot of skill but doesn't even remotely resemble the core of the martial art.

I believe that this style of sparring arose as a result of the equipment used (heavy torso padding) and the no punch to the face rule. It's impractical to block a kick to the head because you'll just hurt your arms in most cases and there's no point blocking your torso because the padding will do the job for you. The logical consequence is that arms are basically momentum generators, instead of used in any practical sense for defence. The purpose is less to block your opponents hits but to accept that they'll land a few blows and try to score more points than they did. This is only possible because kicks against the torso guard don't hurt much and can basically be ignored (barring the occasional powerful back kick).

I have always thought that this form of sparring encourages sloppy technique at the expense of power and speed. You are only able to generate that much power quickly because you can afford not to guard yourself with your hands. In a situation where you are not wearing the torso guard, those kinds of kicks open you up for major damage.
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#435155 - 05/06/12 05:48 AM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I always thought that myself Leo re Kukki sparring. Although it is full contact training, the stategies employed within Kukki sparring seem to favour speed over power. I witnessed incredibly fast and accurate kicking at a WTF class by a black belt, but he didn't seem to have any power in his kicks at all. I suppose those are the rules of the game.

Regarding the sparring not reflecting the core of the art, I think that is an similar issue some Karate practioners have also expressed about Karate and Kumite. Certainly I found Chang Hon TKD to be the same.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435156 - 05/06/12 07:49 AM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: Prizewriter]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
I'm starting to think that sparring never reflects the core of our chosen arts.While it shows the techniques in a semi-controlled setting it still doesn't reflect The S-D aspects. In sparring there is give and take under controlled rules. Where self-defense(what should be the core of the art) isn't bound by the rules.
This isn't to say that I'm against sparring. It's valuable training and alot of fun. I just think that using a defensive art in an offensive sport kind of blurs the purpose of the art.
Before everyone piles on me let me qualify that this is just my opinion. I also realize that now as a traditional, (Okinawan Goju ryu)stylist our focus is on self-defense.



Mark

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#435158 - 05/06/12 09:49 AM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: gojuman59]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I think that is an interesting point Mark. Arts like TKD and Karate often do emphasise a philosophy restraint and not attacking someone unless attacked first. That said, in the sports of TKD and Karate, practioners are engouraged to be aggressive in order to win matches. It most definitely can blur the lines of what the art is really about.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435163 - 05/07/12 04:32 PM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: Prizewriter]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ive been exposed to both during my time with tkd and I must say that the Chang style of sparring seems closer to my style(Counter fighter) though it was miles way from being a productive tool in developing self defense. It saddens me to see so many who feel that there sparring pratice doesnt resemble self defense as taught by there respective arts. I understand that there is certain boundaries, and that these act as constraints against the practitioners but this is something that must be worked past. At a beginner level these boundaries are a great thing but as one makes his journey into his art, it should grow and so should his ability to express that growth in a physical manner. This is on of the reasons, and a big one, that I feel that MMA training has surpassed that of the TMA. IMO
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435164 - 05/07/12 05:37 PM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: Chen Zen]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Chen Zen, you make good points. I did better in the Chang style of sparring too. I found I was much more effective when letting my opponent come to me. I stand by my feeling that sparring brings in a dynamic that isn't there in self-defense. hand and feet coverings change some techniques and totally eliminate others. There's a line that isn't crossed while sparring.In self-defense there isn't that barrier. If you think that to defend yourself you need to blast the knee.. you do.Strikes to the neck,throat,groin are all targets in SD.
I'm not saying that sparring is useless,far from it. I just think that the whole idea that :"I'm a tournement champ so I can defend myself on the street"is flawed.
Having said all that you are correct in you opinion that MMA has surpasssed TMA as far as the physical aspects of training. I just wish they would call it something else. To me they are fighting while using martial techniques. I don't see much art in what they are doing.

Mark

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#435167 - 05/08/12 02:19 AM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: gojuman59]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Mark

Ah, but like any form of art, it is subjective. What you may consider art, I may consider as less. Some train for fitness, and so they see art in forms. Others see artistry in weapons and so they pursue those things and others still, and I fall into this group, believe that the art lies not in things previosly mentioned but within the physical application of the art.

Take what I do, for example. It is not MMA or TMA. The techniques I employ come from a number of different TMA and a few untraditional arts as well. I also train to cover all three ranges, and I roll like a MMA fighter. However you couldnt call me one or the other. What I do I have made my own. As such, is it no longer art?

Also I wanted to address something else you mentioned. The line that one crosses in self defense and prohibits him in training. This line does exist, however, I venture to say that since your opponent in the dojo is also limited by these things that you should be quiet proficient at defending yourself without such crude methods as groin striking, for example. As this proficiency increases this line is diminished, as true self defense can be achieved without such things.

Humbly,
CZ
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435169 - 05/08/12 08:31 AM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: Chen Zen]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
You got me. I'm convinced. I guess my focus was too narrow. Sometimes I need to see things with a more open mind.


Mark

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#435173 - 05/08/12 12:26 PM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: gojuman59]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
LOL@"You got me"

It almost sounded like I had a gun to you. The truth is we can all stand to be a little more open minded every now and then. As I thought about what I was posting yesterday, I came to a realization and that was this; If I put a label to the things I do in my art, which one could or would I pick? A front kick or reverse punch is the same in countless different arts. I could be called a karateka, a practitioner of TKD, a Kung Fu artist or a MMA fighter. The lists are endless. At the end of the day, all of the titles would be fitting but also untrue at the same time. The way they do things are the same physically, and the while some ideas differ, the main idea remains the same, defense. So in a sense what has been viewed as different by many simply by title has been the one and same thing. What defines an art is its artists. The art cannot define the artists as it must be produced from the artist. I am no lnger a TMA, or a MMA, or even a Martial Artist. I am simply, Me.

CZ
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435177 - 05/09/12 03:17 PM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: Chen Zen]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Have done IFT and WTF sparring.

Speed, strength, avoidance, blocking, parring, countering, etc ... these are ALL prevelant of Kukki Sparring. What I find is that the person utilizing the skills will determine how they will fight; personal preference. Than this person will teach and of course will teach their strengths so when attending their school it may be lacking it other areas. I got lucky, each of the skills were taught equally and then you used what worked for you. While I had speed I went more for strength. I wasn't as quick so blocked more and countered.

And we were NEVER trained to have our hands at our sides; who ever thinks this is wrong. In fact in our school if your hands dropped at any time in drills or sparring your whole group had to do burpies, jumping jacks, etc. It was drilled in at all time to keep your hands up. Again those dropping their hands while sparring is a personal preference not indictive to Kukki/WTF Sparring as I have seen and endless amount of video of ITF practitioners doing the exact same.

Quote:
I guess it all comes down to what is your motivation to train. If it is pure sport (no SD) then kukki style TKD is probably for you.However, if you want to learn some self defense and still compete in sparring the Chan Hon is a better choice.


I took offense to this. You are assuming that WTF/Kukki only teach sport; WRONG. Lots of schools focus on self defense and do sparring however it is not sport sparring. If you want sport than you joined the fight team which was separate and in addition to the regular training. That would be like me comparing the classes of ITF I took and saying all schools were the same; poor training and conditioning. One school should NEVER be compared to another. Not all schools or Instructors are the same qualilty.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#435179 - 05/10/12 12:16 PM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: Dereck]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Sorry Dereck. I didn't want too offend you. You must have trained in a good school. I stand by statements though. There are exceptions in both styles. It just was my experience that alot of the sloppy techniques of both types of sparrring didn't translate to good self-defense. Once again this is only my opinion and experience. Most of the ranges needed for SD is closer than what one typically uses in TKD of either style.


Mark

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#435180 - 05/10/12 05:43 PM Re: Kukki Sparring or Chang Hon Sparring? [Re: gojuman59]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I think there are a wide range of school out there for every martial art; some good, some bad and some ugly. Yes, it was a very good school and wish the Instructor did not more on. He brought so much to the school that even he felt that perhaps it wasn't Taekwondo though it most certainly was the base and what the belts represented. And it was plain to see that students were better off than many schools.

Like I said it was Taekwondo based, mixed with BJJ. And because he also fought MMA, many of those skills were brought in. He brought in other Instructors from schools to cross train us. He brought in a black belt BJJ professor on a few occassions. Had a local high ranking Judo guy come in. Had a coach of the University for Roman Greco Wrestling. He brought in guys he trained MMA with. He brought in some boxers. He felt there were holes in the self defense and wanted to make us aware what was out there. Always said if you want to get good at something that to train on our own else where as well and many of us did. And this helped him for us to bring that back to class.

But that aside, I have seen some good Taekwondo schools that are Taekwondo only. I just hate to paint them all with the same brush. Yes, there are many focused only on sport and they do lack in self defense. But are schoold based on self defense and not sport. Sparring is a part of the curriculum which is required by the Kukki; however it has its day in a rotation and has no more emphasis than other skills taught/learned.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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