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#435055 - 04/13/12 08:30 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ives]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 908
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Ives
@Chen Zen - I'm glad you like my view on the matter.
However, before a student can choose a couple of kata that he/she might delve deeper into, he/she should be introduced to a certain curriculum (we have a total of 14 kata, 3 being kihon(fundamentals/basics) kata that are learnt for the 3 different belt colours before shodan/BB and 8 that the student is introduced to before BB).
The student can then get a feel about what kata suit him/her based personal preferences.
Then one or two can become their main focus points in regards to kata (deeper study).
This will aid their other kata aswell, since many techniques and combination and therefor applications aren't unique to a single kata.


Totally agree with this

We have 17 kata, all with basic application, but I allow my students to pick a couple of kata to work with to find a deeper meaning
We only teach Ground work on the First Kata as it fits so much better although many of the techniques in this kata can be found in the "higher" katas
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435064 - 04/14/12 01:21 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
What you guys are describing now sounds like my TKD experience. I probably learned around a dozen or so forms but I only practiced 3 regularly. The rest were learned long enough for gradings. The exerience i had there was worlds apart however, from the other TKD schools I would visit later, which eventually drove me from the art. It simly seemed that th art was a lesser for of its original self. That, rather than growing and evoloving as time passed, it had regressed to pattern learning for BB manufacturing.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435116 - 04/25/12 09:56 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Chen Zen:

<<kata lacks resistance in its training.

With respect, I believe you are mistaken... the ability to demonstrate the initial rote movements is eating no deeper than the surface skin of the apple.

True the surface of kata does not have resistance... initially.
And if that surface were the entirety of kata, (ie only the rote movements), then what was taught was severely incomplete.

The "resistance" you speak of comes from the 2nd stage of kata training; the application of these movements. As with basic techniques, or the initial learning of the form movements, application takes time to learn well.

There is no instant. It takes a very long time to learn how to cope with the different factors, issues that every different body presents. Can someone pull them off... maybe. The more time I spend at the tiny pieces of the bigger kata, my body will learn how to adjust subconsciously.

<<you do it well in the air doesn't mean that it will be so in self defense and that can be dangerous.

The same argument can be made with nuclear bombs, guns, swords, or bare handed. The ability to make no mistakes, or to actually pull the proverbial trigger is entirely simulated until the real thing happens. Myself, I will gladly take the risk...
The intensity of training I find quite sufficient, these are people I know (and mostly like) they won't pull back, I will try not to hurt them either. If I give them the chance, they can and will harm me... with regret! sick

<<Order and pattern has no place in the chaos that is battle.

Ridiculous.

Response that is not deeply trained, deeply ingrained will make greater mistakes. Of course we cannot include ALL factors but we can explore all kinds of basic scenarios pretty thoroughly.
You have to begin training somewhere... build a foundation.

<<The best fighter is a mystery undefinable by his opponent.

You are talking about the "red fighter", the primitive. His/her nemesis is someone who is ACTIVELY absorbing information, actively noting their opponent(s) mistakes, habits, patterns. These people are "white fighters", sharp-shooters. One shot and the situation is ended if they are effective with their skills.

<<if I know what you are doing or going to do, you will not do it without being punished

Of course, but unknown to one another, we are both mysteries to each other. We assess quickly, whomever is better at it, should have advantages.

<<Third, I would suggest that most traditional systems are too expansive, Encompassing too many techniques.

My art has a grand total of ten punches, and seven kicks. There are seven stances and a grand total of ten unarmed kata, and a fist full of various weapons forms. The numbers you mention I think cover some very particular arts; Shitoryu Karate in particular comes to mind. The majority of our "Korean airborne cousins" as well. Not all by any means, but a great many seem to subdivide and separate their art into shredded self-contained parts/pieces.

Self-defense is not something entirely different or seperate to kata centric arts. For them the opposite in fact is true. But for those who can remember that tsunami of isolated, separate 5,000 (?) techniques, that many insane disjointed parts I say bless them!

I agree too many different responses has definate and entirely avoidable risks.

Humbly as well,

Jeff

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#435117 - 04/25/12 11:08 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ronin1966]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ah, Hello Ronin,

A well thought response,as always. Thank You.
I always enjoy talking to TMA, especially Karateka. I believe that perhaps Karateka take more pride and passion in there art than all others. That's mostly a good thing, as long as it doesnt blind. While your personal experience may work resistance in its kata, this isnt prevalent in TMA, as a whole.
To be quiet frank, TMA isnt known for its contact, where other arts, such as Muay Thai are well known for thre contact. It is this contact and "ALIVE" training that defins the practic of MMA.

As for how you train resistance in our kata, I ask you these things.
How do you work in the resistance? Sparring? Drilling? Kumite?
When you work the resistance, are you confined to using that particualar technique or movement?
What are your opponents options or limits?

To the next point, patterns. Im not saying that there shouldn't be repitition in technique to achieve proficiency. What Im saying is that certain movements grouped together in a pattern isnt a good thing. The "white fighter", as you mentioned, is going to note these and exploit them. Take note of a western boxer, for instance. He has a very limited arsenal, yet he can be quiet deceptive and effective. With very few patterns. You gave a list of your curriculum and I must say it dwarfes mine.

I have six punches, five kicks, thats counting knees and elbows. About six submission holds for grappling.I Train gun and knife, and nunchuckas for fun.Oh and one stance. Theres already too much to worry about.
A master of the basics, is stll a master and I believe that the best tchniques for defense could be placed within one simple kata, if you choose to practice in that fashion.

Humbly,
CZ
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435119 - 04/26/12 12:31 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 908
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Chen Zen,

In Chinese forms its usually around 10 years before the student is allowed to enter the realms of Chin Na (Qin Na) whereas when this is effected nothing much is said about this. but because karate is out there for all to see, this is where the discrepancies lie. Japanese Karate does nto have the level of contact as Okinawan Karate (Kode Te) because it was "Watered" down for the Japanese market.

As you know it takes a lifetimes study of karate and kata to truly understand it - "ShuHaRi" I myself have experience of training with Very senior Karateka and their techniques and power on impact is far from soft

Its because the Sports Karate of Ippon Kumite has become popular just like Olympic TKD is nothing like Original TKD

Kyokushin and KNockdown Styles hold the reins to show how hard karate CAN be
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435120 - 04/26/12 04:46 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Your post nailed right on the head Dobbersky-san.

Mark

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#435121 - 04/26/12 10:49 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I agree. Ive seen the differences myself, and Im not a kareteka, but Ive worked with plenty over the years. The okinawans are fighters for sure. Just as you mentiond TKD, while there are still "Hard" schools out there, its a sport more than an art now and I believe that karate and many other TMA are following that path. I think much has been lost over the years in the translation of the art and in the instruction as well. Many schools out there operate soley as a business, looking to find the next lyoto machida, and it is taking away from the school, the art, and the student. Kids cant fight these days, and they certainly dont have style! grin

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#435232 - 05/27/12 11:57 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Chen Zen:

Bowing formally with amusement...

I know little of "tradition", save the tiny one I came from. It was a ~small house~ art. We are all speaking in generics, big brush stereotypes. As others have offered, I too believe there is a meaningful difference between Okinawan arts and their Japanese cousins. I wish I had more exposure, experience to many practices, Neijia, TMA and so forth. But in general I accept your views and perspective...

That said how much contact is required I wonder? As a young man, I would heal regardless. As a married man, with children, the broken nose, the fractured ribs are not necessary for my practice as a daily matter anyway...? If insane/intense is training, how many last, grow or thrive I wonder? How many drop out too injured, too brutalized to function and live in the daily world? I do accept contact is necessary, fundamental to training, but I ask aloud what is "too much"? How much becomes blood letting without value, what becomes neanderthal masturbation, ego 101...

"ME TOUGH..." ok, and... grin


<<It is this contact and "ALIVE" training that defins the practic of MMA.

Pleasant to watch at times, I am not a fan of the CONTEMPT and UNDIGNIFIED behavior most imv display.

<<How do you work in the resistance? Sparring? Drilling? Kumite?

Sparring is an "active method" but has too many pieces to be a clean demonstration, IMHO many times. But in the general sense, sure. By kumite, I will assume you mean the assorted step (1,3,5 step kumite etc.)flavors? That was not too large a piece of our curriculum often. But remember we were not Japanese flavored art... Culturally speaking we had Okinawan martial great grand parents, and american interpretation, grand parents, and american parents martially speaking. That may certainly skew my understanding.

But in the sense of learning a technique 1,3,5 step kumite can be done with resistance, ONCE the mechanics, the basic ideas have been actually learned IMV...

<<When you work the resistance, are you confined to using that particualar technique or movement?

No, but resistance comes in many flavors. Someone resisting a technique because they have something to prove? They do not understand how an idea/technique works? If this is resistance, they are in the way of learning, deliberately.

That being said, if I and a peer "resist" doing a drill we are practicing we are exploring solutions, probing what can and cannot be found buried within it/them.

But yes drills are a reasonable place to explore resistance, IF, if all parties agree, and UNDERSTAND, ok we can resist far more strongly. IMHO, IMHV-fwiw this must be said ALOUD to prevent misunderstanding, ego, or hurting someone without real cause.

<<What are your opponents options or limits?

Stated, said aloud, if we are exploring escapes, their front kick solution is likely problematic, if, if we are trying to explore a technical scenario to ingrain a clean response.

If it is free-flow, "anything goes" that is a different creature, and perfectly reasonable to solve whatever arises.

<<the best tchniques for defense could be placed within one simple kata, if you choose to practice in that fashion.

What did you have in mind ?! Look forward to the youtube vid grin

Humbly,

Jeff

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#435238 - 05/28/12 03:34 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ronin1966]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
*Bows Silently*

Hello again Ronin,

Your training and experiences mirror my own, yet are worlds apart. I too spent many years, and my formative years in MA, in a "in house" enviroment. These are some of my fondest memories in training.

Our approach was different, however. The forms were there, but there was more focus on the 1-3-5 step sparring approaches. Often one student would work a certain technique while another found different ways to work around it and so forth but it was very technique focused and resistance focused. And, as you suggested these things were all agreed upon. The resistance was there as a tool to learn the strengths and weaknesses of what we had to work with within our system. Its not about ego but about making sure that a technique will "Hold up under pressure".

These excercises were used to supplement our sparring,and for refining technique and mechanics. The sparring was always the largest focus of training. The thinking is that it is the closest thing to what we train for, thats what should be done. Thats not to say we never did forms,we did. There was simply less focus on it and more shifted onto application against resistance.

I wondered if you were going to catch the one kata comment. Judging by what you describe above, it may be a long form but could you not do it? After purple belt my art required that you create your own kata. As you are an experienced student, then surely you have come across the techniques that you will use from now on?

Perhaps Im alone in this, as I recently brought it up to another MA who said it was folly, but to me, I believe Ive reached the point in my training that Im no longer looking to add to the curriculum. Ive decided what I can and cannot do well and what I am willing to use in a self defense situation and these are the things I train. He says I have unnecessarily limited myself, while I maintain that I have simply streamlined my training and become more focused.Surely some of the more experienced MA out there feel the same way concerning there art?

The kata Idea, I think I could do it other than the grappling techniques. Purely striking wise, it would be simple and not very long. May have to buy a camera for this one...

Humbly,
Cory

p.s. Oh, and while you may say you know little of tradition, you have a traditional attitude. Something lacking from many modern MA., and sorely missed. When MMA streamlined training, they threw ethos out the window, perhaps not universally but on the large, anyways.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435241 - 05/28/12 12:42 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Chen..one to three kata is exactly how it worked in the 'old days'.

During the formative years of Karate you can read about the old masters learning, they all spent all their time on refining stuff from one to three kata. I have been lucky enough to get training with some people who trained in this old school way and man..like night and day.

Far as the method it works just like anything else, if you actually understand the principles in the kata, you grab an opponent and you start small and focused, and then you expand and progressively get more "real". From my own perspective, Karate places a premium on simply knowing how to do a couple things well..rather than spending alot of time trying to be "well rounded". Not that being well rounded isn't good advice, I just don't think Karate is meant to be this uber-comprehensive system that addresses every single possibility.

Of course today it's great because you also have access to stuff like body armor, and some methods that the old guys didn't!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/28/12 12:48 PM)

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