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#435080 - 04/16/12 02:48 PM Gi or no Gi Grappling?
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Hello folks

It's been said to get the most out of grappling training it is wise to train in both gi and no-gi. That said, do you have a preference?

I've been doing more no-gi stuff lately, and there are som interesting differences I've come across. One thing I've found is that what works in no-gi works in a gi too, but the reverse isn't true!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#435084 - 04/17/12 01:20 AM Re: Gi or no Gi Grappling? [Re: Prizewriter]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Hey PW,

Me, I Go Gi. It really ddepends on what you are training for. I train more for defense than sport. That said, chances are Im fully clothed so I train that way. I even train with shoes.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435126 - 04/28/12 12:17 PM Re: Gi or no Gi Grappling? [Re: Prizewriter]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Prizewriter

An interesting perspective...

I think in a historical context, everybody wearing the identical same clothing had several advantages. Whether a doctor, an administrator, or a farmer, a sewer worker these uniforms, the identical clothing creates a beginning if very shallow, artificial equality.

Make everybody the same and you are equals, brothers, sisters of whatever the training. Dressed differently and the commonality between us is not enforced. Uniforms also allow far greater destruction of clothing. The stuff I normally wear would be stretched, pulled, shredded if it were my standard gear for training sessions. Don;t know about you, but I enjoy wearing clothes I've paid for, as opposed to destroying them anyway?

The belts or sashes can be a very useful tool for training exercises and drills. It can be a practical tool unto itself. To my point earlier, belts remind us though we are like everyone else in the room, that we are the "exact" same, the belt colors are a visible acknowledgement in parallel that we are different at the same time as well. I accept the different belt colors myself as a visual palette for the lessons available to a teacher that class. Rotate teachers, have different classes in multiple locations where I might not know you specifically, the colors are a hint at the fundamental skills available from which to build the lesson... IMHO.

All that being said, I agree entirely with a uniform, that clothing provides an attacker certain advantages solely because of the fiber, strength of the fabric itself. If I do not wear it you cannot choke, jerk, pull, hold me with that jacket in particular.

Like Chen Zen said, we need to practice in regular clothing too, see what that does to our techniques, our mobility among other things. Some daily wear can be highly useful tools as well! But in terms of grappling, the classic judo dogi, the standardized uniform jacket does provide a technical disadvantage provided they can grab us without getting ~destroyed~ on the way in. I would call a tangible disadvantage but minor one.

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

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#435133 - 05/01/12 04:20 AM Re: Gi or no Gi Grappling? [Re: Ronin1966]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I do far more no-gi because I find it funner, the numerous grips in gi grappling annoy me, and I want to be able to effectively operate without over-reliance on extra techniques from clothes. I've seen guys who are great with a gi and terrible without one. That sucks if you get into a fight with grappling involved and you try to rely on grips that aren't there. That said I need to do a little gi work, if you can escape with a gi then it will be easier to escape without one. That's the main benefit really plus it just builds awareness with the extra options (as irritating as they are to have done to you). I doubt I'll ever really use much in the way of offensive gi techniques though, my no-gi skills are way too ingrained.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#435134 - 05/01/12 04:33 AM Re: Gi or no Gi Grappling? [Re: Ronin1966]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Ronin1966
Hello Prizewriter

An interesting perspective...

I think in a historical context, everybody wearing the identical same clothing had several advantages. Whether a doctor, an administrator, or a farmer, a sewer worker these uniforms, the identical clothing creates a beginning if very shallow, artificial equality.

Make everybody the same and you are equals, brothers, sisters of whatever the training. Dressed differently and the commonality between us is not enforced. Uniforms also allow far greater destruction of clothing. The stuff I normally wear would be stretched, pulled, shredded if it were my standard gear for training sessions. Don;t know about you, but I enjoy wearing clothes I've paid for, as opposed to destroying them anyway?

The belts or sashes can be a very useful tool for training exercises and drills. It can be a practical tool unto itself. To my point earlier, belts remind us though we are like everyone else in the room, that we are the "exact" same, the belt colors are a visible acknowledgement in parallel that we are different at the same time as well. I accept the different belt colors myself as a visual palette for the lessons available to a teacher that class. Rotate teachers, have different classes in multiple locations where I might not know you specifically, the colors are a hint at the fundamental skills available from which to build the lesson... IMHO.

All that being said, I agree entirely with a uniform, that clothing provides an attacker certain advantages solely because of the fiber, strength of the fabric itself. If I do not wear it you cannot choke, jerk, pull, hold me with that jacket in particular.

Like Chen Zen said, we need to practice in regular clothing too, see what that does to our techniques, our mobility among other things. Some daily wear can be highly useful tools as well! But in terms of grappling, the classic judo dogi, the standardized uniform jacket does provide a technical disadvantage provided they can grab us without getting ~destroyed~ on the way in. I would call a tangible disadvantage but minor one.

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff


I have to respectfully disagree. I often wear rash guards so no tearing, problem solved. And even when I wear t shirts I've only a couple times had them tear. As for the equality/commonality/brotherhood thing I find training hard together day in and day out, helping each other prepare for competitions, etc. takes care of that. I get more of a brotherhood feeling from my mma team with no uniform than I ever did in TKD or Kenpo just because the nature of it is tougher and we really suffer together through it, help each other get ready to compete and that sort of thing. If you need uniforms to get people to treat each other as equals those people don't belong in the gym and need to grow up first. There's plenty in common when getting put through the same grinder together. For me especially, I've had enough of uniforms from the military, it's just stifling in my opinion. It really doesn't make much difference unless it's a part of 24/7 daily life anyway. Formalities have always come across as distracting for me. As for belts, they are great for credibility and sometimes telling new schools where you stand but there are so many different belt systems even within the same styles that that is limited in usefulness. Also you have to watch out for people getting arrogant because of their belts I've seen that too. I'm certainly not against them they can be very positive, but certainly not crucial. I know what I can do with or without a belt and my performance on the mat will tell a new coach/instructor where my skills lay. A couple minutes of rolling or sparring says far more than any belt.

Please note, I'm not saying uniforms will necessarily be negative or you shouldn't use them, if you like that than great, I just know from experience that they aren't required for the things you mentioned. The attitude of the students and instructor/coach as well as the kind of training is what brings about those things.


Edited by Stormdragon (05/01/12 04:36 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#435138 - 05/02/12 03:56 PM Re: Gi or no Gi Grappling? [Re: Stormdragon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Storm,

In yur first post you mention street defense and relying on grips that arent there. I ask, what are you referring to? Any grip or technique that could be used in a gi could certainly be used in normal street clothing. Not too many naked bandits around my neck of the woods... whistle
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435139 - 05/02/12 07:22 PM Re: Gi or no Gi Grappling? [Re: Chen Zen]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Someone not wearing a shirt (not sure where you live but that isn't uncommon in the summers where I live), or tank tops which will make many gi techniques useless (ripping and just not having much material to work with), tight t shirts (or even baggy shirts often will just tear easily), etc. Like I said there are uses to gi training, and it's great to have gi options in case you are in a fight with someone wearing a jacket or something (common in the cold, wet winters where I live) but I definitely think no-gi is more important and should be more frequently trained because I believe in being equally effective in the situations where you have fewer options (being good with your wrestling grips, clinching, etc. when you don't have extra hand holds from thick clothes). no-gi grappling skill translates better to gi/clothed situations than gi skills translate to situations where you don't have gi techniques available.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#435141 - 05/02/12 08:14 PM Re: Gi or no Gi Grappling? [Re: Stormdragon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Just poking at you about the streakers. I understand your position. And you are correct about the technique transference. Gi training does lose alot without the gi. However, you must also realize the reverse side of that coin. It may be likly that you are clothed and that he is as well. our clothing may give him a advantage if you havent properly learned to defend from being handled or choked by your clothing
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435143 - 05/03/12 01:19 AM Re: Gi or no Gi Grappling? [Re: Chen Zen]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I'll admit that got me to chuckle. ;)As far as him having that advantage, that, to me, is the biggest reason (and necessary area of focus for people who don't compete with a gi) people should do at least a little gi work. I most likely would never really work much on offensive gi techniques but learning to defend them, break grips, etc. is very important (and something I really don't do nearly enough of, read never). Without a gi I've been told I could hang with some purples and I've submitted several blues, with a gi white belts with some gi training can often tool me. While I firmly believe no-gi is most important, it's absolutely good to be familiarized with gi techniques.Just learning to use and break grips properly is a deep art, let alone actually applying things like gi chokes.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#435333 - 06/25/12 08:24 PM Re: Gi or no Gi Grappling? [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Gotta weigh in on this. Although I am definitely more of a "no gi" player, I realize the importance of doing both, simply to be as well-rounded as possible. That's it!

There is nothing wrong with having a preference. However I will say that if all you ever do is gi, you're going to be in for a surprise when the gi comes off (and vice versa).

Cheers!

-John

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