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#434937 - 04/07/12 12:04 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I have always looked at kata as a way to practice alone and keep your moves smooth and precise when you do not have a partner or dojo to practice in.

Kata can also be a physical memory assist, so techniques do not get lost.

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#434952 - 04/09/12 10:43 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: choonbee
I think doing kata is like taking the slow boat to China.
It may be useful when you're sparring in a controlled setting with another KarateKa, but if you tangle with someone who is proficient at jiu-jitsu, or a good boxer who knows how to distance himself properly, or even a smart street fighter, and try to use kata, you're gonna get smoked, and fast.


Not necessarily IF you are taught kata properly it WILL be useful against many attackers including Jujitsu fighters etc. In the Pinan/Heian kata there is double leg take down defence, Naihanchi/Tekki kata can be used as a groundfighting. Kata, need I say any more
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#434954 - 04/09/12 07:35 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
choonbee Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 195
If you say so......
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#434972 - 04/10/12 06:19 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: choonbee
I think doing kata is like taking the slow boat to China.
It may be useful when you're sparring in a controlled setting with another karataka, but if you tangle with someone who is proficient at jui-jitsu, or a good boxer who knows how to distance himself properly, or even a smart street fighter, and try to use kata, you're gonna get smoked, and fast.


That's why a karateka should seek to understand kata.
All I can thnik of is that your view is probably a bit limited as your knowledge on kata probably is. (I don't know.)
I think a boxer will have a disadvantage against a karateka who'll be used to grappling, striking and kicking (all contained in kata), since a boxers arsenal basically comes down to arms (punches).

Smart street fighters?? Someone smart would try to avoid fighting.
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#434974 - 04/10/12 09:52 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: choonbee
If you say so......


I don't say so, I know so...... Choonbee, Its Korean, most TSD/TKD forms are just for passing grades only, they didn't get the full explaination from their Japanese Teachers

All because YOUR experience isn't as good as everyone elses, doesn't mean you're right and everyone else is wrong

Thanks

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434978 - 04/10/12 11:30 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I second this. Most of the real practical techniques in TKD are found in the patterns. It is just about looking in the right places. I'm surprised that we don't get taught them explicitly. Patterns are much more than just dances,especially the higher belt patterns. That said, I still don't think it's enough to defend against a grappler without cross training.
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#434992 - 04/10/12 05:36 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Leo_E_49]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Leo_E_49
I second this. Most of the real practical techniques in TKD are found in the patterns. It is just about looking in the right places. I'm surprised that we don't get taught them explicitly. Patterns are much more than just dances,especially the higher belt patterns. That said, I still don't think it's enough to defend against a grappler without cross training.


I second this too! I spent 4 years on Tang Soo Do, have an superb application to Chil Sung Ee Ro Hyung - including arm bars, groundwork and neck wrenches etc PM me you email if you known this Hyung and I'll send you the details.
I'm working through Koryo Poomsae at present and I will give everyone details of what I found and I think get it on YouTube for you all to see!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434995 - 04/10/12 08:24 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
choonbee Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 195
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
All because YOUR experience isn't as good as everyone elses

Thanks


That's quite an assumption.
So I take it that you have used kata to defend yourself against skilled grapplers and/or boxers in real life situations (ie; not at the dojang) where they were actually trying to hurt you?
_________________________
Insert profound martial arts quotes or tough guy phrases here.

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#434997 - 04/10/12 10:15 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I used to train kata religously. Everyday, working the patterns of Moo Duk Kwan.

I havent done a form in over ten years now. There are some merits to kata, such as muscle memory, and the perfection of techniques,but it lacks much to be considered a "Complete" training regimen.

First and most importantly, kata lacks resistance in its training. Everyone performs better when there is no pressure. Simply because you do it well in the air doesnt mean that it will be so in self defense and that can be dangerous.

Secondly, Kata developes pattern. Order and pattern has no place in the chaos that is battle. The best fighter is a mystery undefinable by his opponent. You cannot stop what you cannot anticipate. You cant expect the outcome to be good if your reaction to a given situation is the same everytime. As a fighter, if I know what you are doing or going to do, you will not do it without being punished for it.

Third, I would suggest that most traditional systems are too expansive, Encompassing too many techniques. You dont need 500 techniques. In fact you probably would do better with less than 100. As for striking, I utilize around fifteen techniques regularly. Even with so few a number, there are virtually endless variations to techniques and combos. Reaction time is key to defense and you simply dont react as fast if you have too many options to weigh.

Humbly, CZ
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#434999 - 04/11/12 02:52 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Chen Zen, I would normally agree with you if we were considering any MA other than TKD. However, I think that in the case of TKD, it is so focussed on kicking and sparring that a careful analysis of the Poomsae will benefit most students. There are numerous hand techniques, including a lot of clinch work and a few unorthodox throws (e.g. the "knee break" in Koryo, which is more practical as a throw) which round out the style very well. Most people ignore these, which I think is a pity.

I still think that these techniques are only really useful if you have cross training in a grappling MA, otherwise getting them to work would be very hit-and-miss. Understanding balance, gripping and being able to unbalance your opponent are missing entirely from the TKD Poomsae. As is training with resistance, as you said.
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