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#435020 - 04/11/12 12:50 PM Frount kick question
Electric Blue Offline
White Lightning
Newbie

Registered: 04/05/12
Posts: 19
Loc: Massachusets
Hey anyone have some advice for geting a frount kick to fully extend above the belt? I am having trouble getting my frount kick on the right side to fully extend and stay there. I snap it back to quickly. thanks

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#435021 - 04/11/12 12:54 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Electric Blue]
Zombie Zero Offline
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Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1991
Loc: Lorton, VA
When you practice, are you kicking a pad, or the air?

You can improve the mechanics of your kicks by practicing it slowly, making sure to focus on each of the four main parts to a kick: Chamber, strike, rechamber, plant.
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#435023 - 04/11/12 01:09 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Electric Blue]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Leave the leg loose and relaxed. The tenser the leg muscles are, the less power, speed, and flexibility you have. Leave the leg completely relaxed and snap the weight of your foot.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435025 - 04/11/12 04:21 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Chen Zen]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
Leave the leg loose and relaxed. The tenser the leg muscles are, the less power, speed, and flexibility you have. Leave the leg completely relaxed and snap the weight of your foot.


Totally agree there, 'kime' or tension should only be at the "Point of Impact" not before and not after, glad your back Chen Zen
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#435027 - 04/11/12 06:12 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Electric Blue]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Electric Blue

Why would you want to leave your leg sticking out up in the air to be grabbed?

"fully extend and stay there"

IMO you should be pulling it back as fast as you can after you sink the kick into whatever you are hitting.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question. smile



Edited by cxt (04/11/12 06:14 PM)
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#435036 - 04/12/12 04:37 AM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Zombie Zero]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Zombie Zero
You can improve the mechanics of your kicks by practicing it slowly, making sure to focus on each of the four main parts to a kick: Chamber, strike, rechamber, plant.

This is very important. First get the mechanics down, then add speed and strength.

We have beginners gradually work on the heigth of their kicks. Knee heigth > belt heigth > chest heigth and maybe eventually head heigth, but the latter isn't necessary.
Also make shure to stretch out the foot so your instep is in line with your shin and pull those toes up.

Good luck!
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Ives

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#435052 - 04/13/12 07:41 AM Re: Frount kick question [Re: cxt]
Electric Blue Offline
White Lightning
Newbie

Registered: 04/05/12
Posts: 19
Loc: Massachusets
Well one of our 2nd don black belts said
that there is not enough power in my right fount
Kick. Because I was snapping it back to quickly,
and not extending it through the target. This was
during pad practice.

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#435054 - 04/13/12 08:25 AM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Electric Blue]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Don't aim for the front surface of the pad aim for the back of the pad, using the same sequence as explained. THIS will give you "more power"
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435056 - 04/13/12 09:42 AM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Electric Blue]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Electric Blue

Ah!....Now I get it...thought you were trying to "strike a pose" with the kick. My mistake smile

What Dobb said above.

You want to aim through the target, not trying to hit the pad on the surface you want to try and hit the hand of the person holding it.

Don't aim for the "surface" try and drive "through" the target itself.

The speed of retraction has very little effect on the power of the kick BTW. Its a question of hitting through/deep then getting it out.

Pro boxers hit pretty hard and they get their hands back quick.


Edited by cxt (04/13/12 09:43 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#435057 - 04/13/12 11:30 AM Re: Frount kick question [Re: cxt]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Make sure you also use the hip and bring the body forward vs just kicking with the leg.
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Duane

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#435060 - 04/13/12 02:14 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: duanew]
Zombie Zero Offline
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Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1991
Loc: Lorton, VA
I find it's better to lean the body back somewhat. This allows you to align your body to deliver more power. (It's like a horizontal stomp, instead of a perpendicular kick. Also, it takes your head out of range of a counterstrike.
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#435066 - 04/14/12 10:58 AM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Zombie Zero]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
We are probably saying the same thing. When people kick the air they tend to keep their hips in the same place and just move the leg. This creates a habit of not using the forward momentum of the body in the kick. By driving the hip forward the upper body "leans" back- so to my mind it's the hip going forward not the body leaning back that adds power. Same thing on a knee you bring the hip into it by arching the back-if you just arch the back you lose power.
Hope that makes sense.
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Duane

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#435068 - 04/14/12 09:32 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: duanew]
Jeff_G Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Midwest
Ok, Electric Blue,

First thing I would note is that your kick is limited by how high your knee is. If you lift your knee to belt hi, that is how high you kick. In order to kick higher you need to practice bringing your knee up. I would suggest doing knee lifts and tapping your shoulder with it. Don't worry about kicking right away. Once you feel the knee come up easily, just let the kick go. It will be higher.
I don't normally advise kicking high in actual fighting but practicing high has its uses. Basically, if you can kick high easily, your kicks anywhere lower will really benefit as well.
You might also try thrusting your hips forward just a bit. I refer to this a "lead with your belt." If you drive your hips in just a bit (not to be confused with an actual front thrust kick), the pad will move back a lot better.
Cheers,
Jeff G.

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#435078 - 04/16/12 02:28 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: duanew]
Electric Blue Offline
White Lightning
Newbie

Registered: 04/05/12
Posts: 19
Loc: Massachusets
thanks guys that is wonderfull info. Ps it feels wonderfull to be back at it again. I have not done this since I was a teenager,and forgot how much fun it is.

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#435109 - 04/23/12 03:07 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Electric Blue]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I know that in Shorinryu at least a slight tilt backwards on the front snap kick (mae geri) is permissable, but personally I don't like it. I prefer to actually lean FORWARD if anything. Hell, I figure that I'm following that kick in, anyway. To me, the kick is like artillery; it weakens the defense and allows the infantry (my hands) to finish the attack.

Aside from keeping your guard up, any energy expended should be in your lower body. The upper body may appear to sag, since it's so relaxed.
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#435113 - 04/24/12 10:28 AM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Ironfoot]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri

I agree Ironfoot. Leaning in with mae geri is the way to go. If I can stick em' low with the kick maybe their hands drop some. If that happens I can rush them and use my hands.

Mark

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#435114 - 04/24/12 10:19 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: gojuman59]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
It depends on the situation. If I want to break his gueard or force my way inside, then definately lean forward. If I want to stop-hit, or attack quickly then I dont lean at all. At six foot, I can throw this at chin height quickly with little effort. If I want to keep the guy back I MIGHT use a backwards leaning front kick like a thrusting Muay Thai type kick. Is would allow you to keep your head back and can be done reasonably quickly. Really to me though, there are a lot of drawbacks to this type of attack so I rarely us it. It would work well as a finisher if it landed though, like 300.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435128 - 04/28/12 02:27 PM FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Electric Blue]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Electric Blue:

Old thread interesting question...

<<not enough power in my right fount Kick. Because I was snapping it back to quickly,and not extending it through the target.

There are two (2) families of kicking, the first is the THRUST kick, the other is the SNAP. There are different opinions as to the power of one or the other type. What you describe are two different creatures.

Regardless of which is used the penetration must go through the surface of the pad, not merely touching its surface skin. It is a learning process for a reason... with enough time you will have good mechanics.

jeff

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#435136 - 05/01/12 04:14 PM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Ronin1966]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Exactly! The mae geri, or front SNAP kick should drop the opponent where he's standing. The mae konate, or front THRUST kick is delivered with the heel rather than the ball of the foot, and should propel him backwards.
_________________________

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#435137 - 05/02/12 05:45 AM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Ironfoot]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Physics and experience tell me that when you kick someone hard with a straight line kick they go backwards-equal/opposite. Never had anyone drops straight down on a front kick (except in point sparring when penetration was shallow because of light contact rules)-usually flew back about 10 feet with a real surprised look on their face, held their tummy and then tried to flee the scene.

Duane

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#435140 - 05/02/12 08:07 PM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: duanew]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Absolutely. If landed, this should be devastating and almost always a fight ender.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435194 - 05/21/12 03:56 PM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: duanew]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Well, I've never kicked anyone even half as hard as I could (and hope to never have to), so I can't really argue the point. I have dropped people and intentionally knocked them back, and the ones who went straight down were the ones in the most pain.
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#435203 - 05/22/12 07:26 PM Re: Frount kick question [Re: Electric Blue]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Electric Blue
Well one of our 2nd don black belts said
that there is not enough power in my right fount
Kick. Because I was snapping it back to quickly,
and not extending it through the target. This was
during pad practice.


It depends on the type of kick, think of it like this: One is like trying to drive a log through something - thrust kick, the other is more of a "snap" that reverberates shock into the target. Using a pad, I cannot imagine trying the first kind of kick because pad simply won't work for it. For the second, honestly if you are unable to fully extend and that is the problem, not retraction.. just make your partner drop the pad until you can do it right, IMO.

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#435206 - 05/23/12 01:15 PM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Ironfoot]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Originally Posted By: Ironfoot
Well, I've never kicked anyone even half as hard as I could (and hope to never have to), so I can't really argue the point. I have dropped people and intentionally knocked them back, and the ones who went straight down were the ones in the most pain.


Wow a name like IronFoot kinda suggest otherwise,lol. I only ever used this once in actual self defense. I dont think I used full power even, as I was trying to land it as fast as possible. With that said, it ended the fight immediately. He went straight down and stayed down.Four ribs broken.

If your partner or instructor says you arent getting enough power on a snap kick then you are probably trying too high. lower the kick, like Zach suggested.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435207 - 05/23/12 04:11 PM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Chen Zen]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
There is a misconception out there about "snap" techniques. Yes, we emphasize pulling them back, but after some "time on contact".

I don't practice speed on my kicks - adrenaline in a "real" situation will help. Most people can't defend kicks, anyway, so my thought would be to kick a hole clean through an opponent.
_________________________

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#435208 - 05/24/12 12:01 AM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Ironfoot]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I would agree with that concerning most kicks,but Ive seen too many front kicks get caught, either by skill or pure accident. I think if you are going to use it in a defense situation, it should be of the speedy and snappy variety.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435229 - 05/27/12 10:39 AM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Chen Zen]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
Drive the snapping kick through the target and then it's a real powerful kick.

I don't practice the ''thai style'' or pushing type of kick... There should be no bending backwards if your trying to deliver impact to a target.

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#435230 - 05/27/12 11:04 AM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Ironfoot]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ironfoot:

<<The front THRUST kick is delivered with the heel rather than the ball of the foot, and should propel him backwards.

IYV, the thrust by design moves people, buys the the kicker more space? Its primary purpose if you will?

How does the heel work in the thrust you describe? I would have thought the ball of the foot as the point of contact regardless of which technique.

Doesn't the heel as contact point demand a much higher knee, much, much higher height to thrust forward to the torso? Just want to make sure I understand the technique you describe...

Jeff

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#435436 - 08/30/12 01:12 PM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Ronin1966]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Sorry it took me so long to reply, Ronin.

You may want to knock someone away for a variety of reasons. It may be that you just want to "discourage" them.

The heel thrust does require the knee to be higher, since it works best as a descending kick. Targets are just above the groin or just inside the hip bone. Find out what 3 areas people get hernias in, and those are the spots!

This kick should also include that "hip roll" upwards some have described in front kicks.
_________________________

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#435453 - 09/11/12 11:07 PM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Ironfoot]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ive always used the ball of the foot for this kind of kick. The smaller surface area equals greater penetration into the opponent.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435454 - 09/12/12 12:28 AM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: Chen Zen]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Never have been able to figure out how this is managed without breaking toes. My toes do not bend up and back far enough to be safe.

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#435457 - 09/12/12 07:46 AM Re: FRONT vs. SNAP Front kick question? [Re: iaibear]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Work on it, iabear. If the toes don't bend back far enough, go to a wall and push the ball of the foot (toshi) as close as you can, letting the toes go up the wall. Hold for some time. Also, practice raising your toes when you're standing around.
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