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#434777 - 03/11/12 04:03 AM Which fighting style to train in?
paul8 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 2
Hey guys I am about to join a gym and they have a few different fighting styles to train in. I was wondering which one you guys suggest. I would like the one which provides the most real world self defense benefit. My choices are K1, kickboxing, Muay Thai, Boxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and MMA.

thanks

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#434778 - 03/11/12 08:23 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: paul8]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Hello and welcome.

As to your question, here are a few points to consider:

i) Any of the arts you mentioned can and have been used "self defense". Some people will try and convince you martial arts are papaer, rock, scissors. It's not always that simple. Style A doesn't always beat Style B. It's more to do with who can impose their strategy in a fight. A grappler will lose to a boxer if the grappler is tentative and doesn't close the distance and engage (see Roger Gracie vs Muhammed Lawal).

ii) Regardless of what your goal in martial arts is (be it to become better at fighting or get in shape), you will get the most benefit by training consistently. In order to train consistently, you have to ENJOY what you are doing. If you don't enjoy training sooner or later you're going to quit.

Finding something you enjoy is the most important thing to consider.

iii) The only way you will know if you enjoy a class is to try it. So the advice here would be to try all the classes and see what you enjoy the most.


Good luck!


Edited by Prizewriter (03/11/12 08:23 AM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434779 - 03/11/12 09:35 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Prizewriter]
paul8 Offline
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Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 2
sounds good thanks! I am not really into grappling or kicking much and I used to spend hours on the punching bag at my schools gym obsessed with it so I think I will try boxing first. The training will be 5 days a week so ur right I should do one I like.

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#434783 - 03/12/12 07:36 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: paul8]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Try the art of fighting without fighting!

To get more of a feel, YawYan (Dance of Death) or Filipino Dirty Boxing would be a good advancement from Western Boxing!

The thing is in the US 0f A you have more of a choice of styles and a few "home grown" styles too!

Just wenjoy your training and remember its not about how big your Ego is, its about how placid you are even when confronted!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434788 - 03/13/12 07:28 PM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Dobbersky]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
You said you wanted to choose the one that is most applicable to self defense but will avoid grappling or kicking stuff because you aren't into it? Why ask our opinion if you're just doing what you want anyway? Not that that's a bad thing just seems odd. In any case boxing is great but if you're concerned about self defense you really need to take at least a few classes in BJJ because the ground, in a street situation, is worst case scenario and you need to have some tools for dealing with that.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434808 - 03/20/12 05:59 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Stormdragon]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Fighting and self defense are two different things.

For self defense I recommend you use your brain.

That being said: like always look around at what is available in your area, how these schools are and which school you like. It's not about the style, but about what you put into it and what your goals are.
_________________________
Ives

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#434810 - 03/21/12 03:54 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Ives]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Ives
Fighting and self defense are two different things.

For self defense I recommend you use your brain.

That being said: like always look around at what is available in your area, how these schools are and which school you like. It's not about the style, but about what you put into it and what your goals are.


Well physical confrontation and preparing for it is one aspect of self defense though it's the least crucial. Whether you want to call it fighting or whatever. But yeah using your brain is the biggest thing for SD, awareness and avoidance!
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434818 - 03/22/12 12:41 PM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Stormdragon]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
@ paul8
Most styles/formats you list are considered martial sports by many. This means they will most likely train to function within a rule bound competition format. You have to ask yourself: "Is that what I want to do?" You also have to discus this with the instructors at the gym you try out.

One thing most will advocate I think, is this: first try a couple of classes, then decide to join or not. There is no reason to sign up for classes that turn out (after several classes) to not be your cup of tea!

Please also browse the sticky's. They gut good information.
_________________________
Ives

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#434819 - 03/23/12 04:32 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Ives]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Ives
@ paul8
Most styles/formats you list are considered martial sports by many. This means they will most likely train to function within a rule bound competition format. You have to ask yourself: "Is that what I want to do?" You also have to discus this with the instructors at the gym you try out.

One thing most will advocate I think, is this: first try a couple of classes, then decide to join or not. There is no reason to sign up for classes that turn out (after several classes) to not be your cup of tea!

Please also browse the sticky's. They gut good information.


Since when does anyone train with no rules? I can't see training partners lasting long that way. Only way to do that is with zero resistance and while a little of that is certainly ok it's not really useful at all to base all your training around it. If you can slip a jab you can slip an eye gouge. 90% of self defense is awareness, avoidance and if all else fails simple techniques with a lot of aggression combined with good conditioning (and fight sports tend to build conditioning well). The Army close quarter combat program is based on and predominantly uses BJJ, wrestling, and kickboxing for that reason.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434844 - 03/26/12 07:09 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Stormdragon]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
If someone wan't to learn for self defence, that person has to make sure that he/she recognises the limitations that comes with the chosen training format.

Training to function well within a rule bound competition format, which most likely will involve making use of those rules to get your opponent penaltied, is something different then training to do harm; so not hindered by rules.

Training without rules was never mentioned by me in my earlier posts.

So you could say awareness (+ avoidance, adaption, etc.) both in regards to training as well as in regards to your surroundings can aid in self-defence(-repetoir).
_________________________
Ives

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#434935 - 04/06/12 03:28 PM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Prizewriter]
choonbee Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 195
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Hello and welcome.

As to your question, here are a few points to consider:

i) Any of the arts you mentioned can and have been used "self defense". Some people will try and convince you martial arts are papaer, rock, scissors. It's not always that simple. Style A doesn't always beat Style B. It's more to do with who can impose their strategy in a fight. A grappler will lose to a boxer if the grappler is tentative and doesn't close the distance and engage (see Roger Gracie vs Muhammed Lawal).

ii) Regardless of what your goal in martial arts is (be it to become better at fighting or get in shape), you will get the most benefit by training consistently. In order to train consistently, you have to ENJOY what you are doing. If you don't enjoy training sooner or later you're going to quit.

Finding something you enjoy is the most important thing to consider.

iii) The only way you will know if you enjoy a class is to try it. So the advice here would be to try all the classes and see what you enjoy the most.


Good luck!


Excellent advice.
You will get good at whatever you choose to do only if you enjoy doing it, and only you can answer that question for yourself.
Try everything. There's no rush, and the time invested will pay big dividends when you discover the style that you enjoy the most, as opposed to doing something that someone else thinks you should do, and having it become more of a chore.
Down the road, you may decide to switch to something else, and there's no shame in that either. You wouldn't be the first to do so.


Edited by choonbee (04/06/12 03:39 PM)
_________________________
Insert profound martial arts quotes or tough guy phrases here.

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#434936 - 04/06/12 11:28 PM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Ives]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Ives
If someone wan't to learn for self defence, that person has to make sure that he/she recognises the limitations that comes with the chosen training format.

Training to function well within a rule bound competition format, which most likely will involve making use of those rules to get your opponent penaltied, is something different then training to do harm; so not hindered by rules.

Training without rules was never mentioned by me in my earlier posts.

So you could say awareness (+ avoidance, adaption, etc.) both in regards to training as well as in regards to your surroundings can aid in self-defence(-repetoir).


Do you mean adapting the rule set of training to be more conducive to real fighting such as not allowing guard pulling while sparring/rolling?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434956 - 04/09/12 09:00 PM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Stormdragon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
It sounded like he said "Dont train for sport if you want to defend yourself effectively".
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#434969 - 04/10/12 05:56 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Stormdragon]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Do you mean adapting the rule set of training to be more conducive to real fighting such as not allowing guard pulling while sparring/rolling?


Yeah it comes down to that more or less.

Here is an example of my training. I study bogu-karate, which has set rules for matches. The most prominent and also rather limiting is that contact may only be made on parts of the bogu (face-shield and chest protector).

But next to training for matches we also train for SD, but that doesn't involve those same rules. In an SD situation for instance I would probably kick my opponents ankle or knee; these aren't allowed in competition. Just like hitting the neck; could benefit me in SD, get's me disqualified in a match.

Kumite(sparring) and shiai(competition/match) are differnent in my opinion.
Some martial artist fail to train for both, some train for both as they train for the latter (which is too limited!), some train both individually best suited for their individual goals/purpose.

(This is the reason why I differentiate between partners (in sparring) and opponents (in competition and SD; the latter may be very obvious why).
_________________________
Ives

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#434971 - 04/10/12 06:00 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Chen Zen]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
It sounded like he said "Dont train for sport if you want to defend yourself effectively".

Nope, not exactly... (close though)

More like this: If you want to defend yourself effectively train as safely as possible to defend yourself effectively.
Train for sport to win or to enjoy yourself.
Don't get those differnt goals mixed up.


Edited by Ives (04/10/12 06:01 AM)
_________________________
Ives

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#435002 - 04/11/12 03:00 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Ives]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I think that there is some amount of cross-over. Without both sport and SD training, you're going to be missing something. I don't see why you can't have both as a goal.
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Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#435004 - 04/11/12 05:02 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
I think you are right, there is some amount of cross-over. Getting hit, is getting hit.
You can have both as a goal, that's up to every practisioner. But be aware that both are different goals that need a different approach in training, that's all I am saying.
_________________________
Ives

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#435070 - 04/15/12 11:18 PM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Ives]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
It's absurd to think that training in a combat sport that involves all kinds of strikes, holds, takedowns/throws and such won't give someone some tools to effectively enable them to defend themselves in at least some real situations. Are there some kinds of situations that you can't address that way? Yes of course, especially in regards to tactics rather than specific techniques (for instance multiple attacker scenarios, weapon threats/attacks, surprise attacks, etc.) however those "sport" skills will still provide a wide range of tools that can help a lot and dealing in those other situations is more about tactics and awareness or mental training than "ok now groin strikes and eye gouging is involved."

What techniques you may deal with on the street as opposed to in the cage or ring is largely irrelevant. In mma you can throw front kicks to the upper thigh. If you can defend that effectively you can and most likely will stop a kick to the knee. If someone goes to full mount and tries to eye gouge you it's no different than defending a single hand choke, you buck hard which forces them to put their hands n the ground to keep from face planting, then arm trap and roll. There's only a few techniques that need to be addressed for self defense not contained in sport, and you can do that while still basing your program around sport. For example, stomps when they are standing and you are down (which used to be allowed in sport as well). But really, the main thing that is different is a tactical and psychological aspect. Combat sport training is different from physical self defense but not 100% different.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#435071 - 04/16/12 01:06 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Stormdragon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I agree for the most part, however there has been one very important question being overlooked, and that is "Which sport or art are we referring to?" Some are more suited to combat than others IMO, and unbiased evaluation should be observed whenever thinking of transfering techniques from one set of rules and ideas to another.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435073 - 04/16/12 10:47 AM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: paul8]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Paul 8

Might be kinda of a non-issue at this point--but are the choices you have listed the one you have AVALIABLE or are they just the ones you WANT to look at?

The reason I ask is that the one "which provides the most real world self defense benefit" is generally the one you, yourself are best at.

Nor are all gyms/dojo/dojang/kwoons/etc. the same. MMA style training is good but not if the only gym in your location kinda sucks.

You should probably take into consideration that "other" factors are just as important as "style" when it comes to training. Stuff like:

-Is the teacher any good? They might be real tough people but can they TEACH what they know?

-Can you make the classes you want--some places have good training and teaching but not at the times you have avaliable.

-Can you afford the classes--hate to get all real-world in you, but these days costs--gas, class cost, opportunity cost etc. sometimes makes a real difference.

-What are your training buddies like? Most of what you list you kinda/often need a partner to work with. Are such people avalaible for you at the time you wish to train?

-What is the background of the people teaching---you are getting ready to join a "gym" that offers:

-K1
-Kickboxing
-Muay Thai
-Boxing
-Brazilian JJ
-MMA

A-Some gym smile

B-Is the same person teaching a couple of these or do they have 6 different teachers?

You probably have already thought about all these--just mentioning it.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#435081 - 04/16/12 04:41 PM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Stormdragon]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
It's absurd to think that training in a combat sport that involves all kinds of strikes, holds, takedowns/throws and such won't give someone some tools to effectively enable them to defend themselves in at least some real situations.
I totally agree, however only one of the named sport formats allows for those tactics. The least limited in this shortlist being MMA.

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
What techniques you may deal with on the street as opposed to in the cage or ring is largely irrelevant.[/qoute]I disagree, because little sport formats (not only most of the ones named) train for a wide array of techniques. Many sport formats, especially style-specific-sport formats bann many techniques. Whethter these techniques are trained in and for is dependant of the school you train in.

[quote=Stormdragon]There's only a few techniques that need to be addressed for self defense not contained in sport, and you can do that while still basing your program around sport. For example, stomps when they are standing and you are down (which used to be allowed in sport as well).
That all rather depends on the sports format you train in.

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
But really, the main thing that is different is a tactical and psychological aspect.
Agreed.

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Combat sport training is different from physical self defense but not 100% different.
I totally agree!
_________________________
Ives

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#435082 - 04/16/12 08:31 PM Re: Which fighting style to train in? [Re: Ives]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Ives
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
It's absurd to think that training in a combat sport that involves all kinds of strikes, holds, takedowns/throws and such won't give someone some tools to effectively enable them to defend themselves in at least some real situations.
I totally agree, however only one of the named sport formats allows for those tactics. The least limited in this shortlist being MMA.

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
What techniques you may deal with on the street as opposed to in the cage or ring is largely irrelevant.[/qoute]I disagree, because little sport formats (not only most of the ones named) train for a wide array of techniques. Many sport formats, especially style-specific-sport formats bann many techniques. Whethter these techniques are trained in and for is dependant of the school you train in.

[quote=Stormdragon]There's only a few techniques that need to be addressed for self defense not contained in sport, and you can do that while still basing your program around sport. For example, stomps when they are standing and you are down (which used to be allowed in sport as well).
That all rather depends on the sports format you train in.

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
But really, the main thing that is different is a tactical and psychological aspect.
Agreed.

Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Combat sport training is different from physical self defense but not 100% different.
I totally agree!



True, I just kind of naturally hone in on mma because that's what I do (well and I'm a competitive grappler). In any case, just because a particular combat sport bans certain techniques, doesn't mean you won't be able to deal with them in a fight because, at least in mma anyway, most of the banned techniques are similar to allowed techniques and the defenses used for those would work on the banned techniques, I think I mentioned a few instances in fact. That's not the case with everything you might find on the street but much of it, and for the stuff that can't be handled that way it's not really that tough to sometimes throw in some time spent on that in training if you care about self defense. True though, it does depend a lot on the sport format you follow. I train for competition in a few different organizations with differing rules so I train in a wife range of techniques including those banned in some organizations. In some ways there is carryover, for instance heel hooks are banned unless you are a pro, yet training consistently on the straight ankle lock will make your heel hook better because it's a very similar technique so making the jump from the straight ankle lock to the heel hook isn't difficult. All this being said, I tend not to worry too much about the fact that certain things that can be done in the street I don't train for because I know how to avoid physical confrontations, that's a big part of my philosophy on self defense.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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