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#434639 - 02/20/12 04:31 AM DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!!
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Recently in the press over the last few months there's been a few Martial Arts Instructors being placed in the dock for Sex Offences, Harry Cook the main one but then I heard of ''Liam O’Grady’’, a double European champion. A 4th degree BB.
The story is in The York Press about HIS rape and defilement of a 13 year old girl.

Thankfully the majority of trainers in the Martial Arts are above board.

I think it should be deemed as against the rules and regulations of ALL NGB's for martial arts to allow Instructors to date students; this would hopefully put a damper on any Instructor thinking about anything untoward.

I know the argument is well they're consenting adults but if that's the case tell them to train elsewhere so that the relationship can blossom without the risk of being considered as incorrect!

I'm trying to be polite but it is quite testing.

College Lecturers are not allowed to date students so why are Martial Arts instructors allowed to. We are given a position of trust and I know of a few female students who on Forums left their previous Dojo due to too much forwardness or their Instructor/Assistant Instructor "making a pass" etc at them.

A student joins your School to feel safe, to not have to worry about their Instructor "oogling" at them etc. To know that they can train without having to be self conscious and to be treated equally amongst the other students.

What is it that these Instructors see when they get a young female student? Is it just me or does anyone see these issues?
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434640 - 02/20/12 06:06 AM Re: DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
First let me start this by telling you that I have dated women in my dojo when I was younger. I've been married to one of them for the last 24 years.
Let's start with a couple of important points:
1. Having sexual relations with under age students isn't dating it's rape. Rape is a crime of control not a dating situation.
2. Anyone who ogles females, regardless of the situation will make then feel uncomfortable, this is not dating.
3. "Hitting on" women is not dating.
4. Dating is a relation of two people who respectfully and mutually agree to spend time together getting to know each other. When the relationship falls outside that parameter it isn't dating and potentially can become an abusive situation.
In the dojo the sensei is the sensei. Our first tenent of the dojo kun says, "Karate begins and ends with respect." In the dojo sensei is sensei. He treats all students with respect while hoping to earn the respect of his students. Outside the dojo Sensei isn't sensei, he/she is just like anyone else.
If the sensei follows those ideals I don't have any reservations about the dating. Remove the mutual respect and I am opposed to the relationship for instructor and student or ANY relationship, dating, marriage, friendship or business between any two people.
_________________________
Duane

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#434641 - 02/20/12 06:40 AM Re: DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!! [Re: duanew]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: duanew
First let me start this by telling you that I have dated women in my dojo when I was younger. I've been married to one of them for the last 24 years.
Let's start with a couple of important points:
1. Having sexual relations with under age students isn't dating it's rape. Rape is a crime of control not a dating situation.
2. Anyone who ogles females, regardless of the situation will make then feel uncomfortable, this is not dating.
3. "Hitting on" women is not dating.
4. Dating is a relation of two people who respectfully and mutually agree to spend time together getting to know each other. When the relationship falls outside that parameter it isn't dating and potentially can become an abusive situation.
In the dojo the sensei is the sensei. Our first tenent of the dojo kun says, "Karate begins and ends with respect." In the dojo sensei is sensei. He treats all students with respect while hoping to earn the respect of his students. Outside the dojo Sensei isn't sensei, he/she is just like anyone else.
If the sensei follows those ideals I don't have any reservations about the dating. Remove the mutual respect and I am opposed to the relationship for instructor and student or ANY relationship, dating, marriage, friendship or business between any two people.


Totally agree with these points.

I still feel dating students is not correct, yes my points may be a little extreme but compare it to "Corporal Punishment" in schools. It was a good deterant when given correctly, not abused except by the select few. But it did have to stop, in ALL schools, from allowing pupils to be "Canned" or "Strapped" in British schools, namely because of a few "abuse" cases!!!

As an Instructor you have a moral duty to be someone that YOUR student can trust, if they can't trust you, then why teach!!! It doesn't matter about the age of the student, as we agree on the underage issue.

Let me put it this way, you have a 16 - 19 (no longer a minor in legal terms) year old Daughter and she's away at College or University, she gets "involved" in a relationship with a 28+ Assistant Instructor/Instructor at the Local Dojo, and you would be happy with that?

This is not a personal Dig at anyone this is to stop those out there who abuse their position of trust for their own gains and gratification. If 2 people are genuinely attracted to each other and are conscenting adults, I am not there to Judge as long as the relationship is on mutual ground

I have a 17 year old Daughter at College now and that's why its probably being like a "bee in my bonnet"

I dont think it should be as extreme as my Thread topic but we need to stand together and set principles etc
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434642 - 02/20/12 10:54 AM Re: DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Any 28 year old dating a 16-19 year old would cause me concern regarding the relationship in or out of karate class.I will guarantee you that having a daughter of that age greatly effects your perception.
I agree with needing to create principles of respectful principles in our lives, personal and professional that's part of what the martial arts is suppose to teach.
So it the character of the relationship that is important not the location of it's origin. You will find good relationships forged in all situations and circumstances, as well as, bad. The context is set by those in the relationship, not the location. Whether it is a police officer, minister, banker, mechanic, attorney, small business person or martial arts instructor there will be those of good character and bad.
It worked for my wife and I and I wouldn't have it any other way-which is why I disagree. Opinions are based on experiences good or bad.
_________________________
Duane

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#434645 - 02/21/12 09:58 AM Re: DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!! [Re: duanew]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Duanew-san

I have had a few sister Threads on other forums too, and I thank you for your focus. I agree I am a bit more "concerned" due to the fact I have a young daughter. I have added your points on your previous post to another forum hosted by my NGB thanking you of course for these clear and precise details

Thank you all for your guidance

OSU
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434692 - 02/28/12 10:34 PM Re: DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Between two consenting adults, having any relationship outside of the dojo setting is a matter of judgement. However whether in the teacher or the student role respectively regardless of the scenario, by definition we cannot be equals in those roles.

Unless relationships are between two, consenting adults who are equals... (ie and able to be equals) such relationships are criminally stupid, avoidably complex or in the specific cases mentioned above simply criminal.

In my humble opinion... I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

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#434694 - 02/28/12 10:55 PM Re: DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!! [Re: Dobbersky]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ken:

Let's play devils advocate for a little then...

Take your pick, if any of us were single, and a student who was fifteen years younger than us attended classes for say a year and in that time showed/developed a sexual attraction, or even sexual interest in us as their teacher(s)... eek

Is there any possible scenario where the resulting "relationship" will be anything but dangerously problematic, some being potentially criminal in the specific cases mentioned? Ok, or let's switch the roles around, tweak the ages to something far closer together...

Would there ever be a "mutual relationship" possible that won't cause very avoidable problems, massive moral and ethical issues that can be easily avoided... don't you think?

Traditional flower arrangement, paper folding, any form of budo/bujitsu... I see no difference in the nightmare any relationship that would be caused by dating, and romantic relationship between students and teachers.

I cannot conceive of any that would not break fistfuls of beliefs, basic common sense and a host of ethical-moral problems if anyone did so.

Bad, bad, bad idea IMHO... but now that being said I could think of a few procedures which would remove lots of them straight off the top. e.g. Forms posted on the main bulletin board, in full public view, in a mandatory, several step process over a years time in which if broken would summarily remove said teacher or student from the locale scenario...

But certain criteria would have to be met... and followed.
Jeff

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#434698 - 02/29/12 07:41 AM Re: DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!! [Re: Ronin1966]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
TOTALLY agree its just the odd one or two individuals that are "Bad Eggs", the rest of us are normal and have good morals etc when it comes to issues like this! Its jsut scary that the 2 I have noted are dare I say placed on pedastals who people believed were perfect and free from any wrong doings. it shows doesn't it that my ethos on my seniors is they havev just trained a bit longer but they are "STILL HUMAN!!!!"
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434701 - 02/29/12 06:38 PM Re: DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!! [Re: Ronin1966]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Ronin1966
I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff


Depending on the people involved-you could be right, you could be wrong. Blanket statements while making some people feel secure, don't cover all the possibilities.
_________________________
Duane

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#434709 - 03/02/12 02:00 AM Re: DATING STUDENTS - NOOOOO!!!!! [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
They should be able to have relationships.. What consenting adults do with each other is their own business. If the relationship interfers with the teaching of the teacher well then he learns a valuable lesson.

I know plenty of teachers who married their students and are quite happy. Love doesn't distinguish between position really.

Also I would hope that most 28ish year olds would have the decency or actually the taste not to date willing 16-19 year olds even if their ''legal''

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