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#434703 - 03/01/12 03:30 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I was reading the very interesting website you posted duanew, particularly "Biomechanics of Lethal Force Encounters - Officer Movements". It's very similar to some of the research I've read in human computer interaction, particularly to do with learned user interfaces. This website is a treasure trove. smile

Anyway, it has this relevant finding:
"It is significant however that one of the fastest draws and the slowest draws occurred from a level 3 duty holster and were directly linked to the amount of practice the officer had with that holster ... the greatest factor in the speed of the draw is the amount of time the officer spends practicing with that holster."

It appears that from a biomechanical perspective, practice in a non-stressful environment will result in improvement which I think they imply can be used in a stressful environment (unless the conclusions drawn in the article are purely academic).

""A Survey of the Research on Human Factors Related to Lethal Force Encounters: Implications for Law Enforcement Training, Tactics, and Testimony" is also an interesting read, particularly the sections on Response Times and Implications for Training and Tactics, which will probably affect my own training in future if I spend time on self defence.

Quoting: "Realistic, complex scenario-based training that includes the full range of physical and mental tasks an officer is required to perform in a deadly confrontation, up to and including the recall and reporting of critical scenario details, is essential to improving an officer’s performance and resiliency following such encounters. Repetition, then, further increases motor memory and mental processing as well as provides for positive practice of these critical perishable skills. Realistic training, 144 Law Enforcement Executive Forum • 2008 • 8(4) which includes the unexpected, also reduces an officer’s tendency to overanticipate and preemptively react with a pre-programmed response when a novel response may be more appropriate, thereby enhancing mental, interpersonal, and physical adaptability (U.S. Army Research Institute for the Behavioral and Social Sciences, 2005)."

It appears that there may be some benefit to reality based scenarios and removing conditioned responses, although reaction times suffer. I guess the question is, for a civilian, are reaction times more important than novel thought?

However they do point out that "Repetition increases motor memory, mental processing, and intuitive decision making under stress.", indicating that training for motor memory is beneficial under stress.

Thanks for the website duanew, it's definitely going in my self defence reading list.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (03/01/12 03:49 AM)
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#434704 - 03/01/12 07:33 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Leo_E_49]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Leo_E_49
Originally Posted By: duanew
To make your point you cite wikepedia?


You know what, reading back through the thread I'm out of my depth on this one. I retract my statement.

I'm curious though as to what the two sides of the argument are in this thread, could you clarify for me? You appear to be talking about memory under stress when the topic started out with conditioned and/or instinctual responses.

If we're discussing how to get familiar with the effects of adrenaline for the purposes of self defence, how is memory of the stressful incident after the fact related to this training? Perhaps in terms of identifying your assailants?

What is your stance on the instinctual response? Does it exist? Can it be improved through training? Other people have more clearly stated their opinions on these issues.

I believe the question here is not really whether instincts exist or not, but what kind of prior training (if any) can benefit us during in a high adrenaline situation.


1. Some one else stated the ideas about stress and memory and I put up the website on the scientific research.
2. All animals have instinctual responses. Flinch Response, startle response, Body Alarm response-all encoded in the DNA and stored in the mid brain-where you get your survival/stress responses Fight Flight Flee Submit and Posture.
3. Another good read is, On Combat by Pulitzer Prize nominated author, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. I had the honor of serving on the Advisory Board of the book. Also getting ready to do some research with Dr. Lewinski next fall on psychomotor skills and deterioration over time. Specifically how soon do arm bar type skills and shooting skills for police become less effective and eventually ineffective over time without practice.
4. Also just finished doing research on movement time to close with an opponent for a gun disarm vs draw time research.
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#434705 - 03/01/12 04:26 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
hope Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Duane said, "Also getting ready to do some research with Dr. Lewinski next fall on psychomotor skills and deterioration over time. Specifically how soon do arm bar type skills and shooting skills for police become less effective and eventually ineffective over time without practice."

Please post about this one while you're doing it, if possible :-). Interesting to see how this research progresses, and what problems you encounter doing it. For example, are you studying retired police officers, or ones who have quit the force at a younger age and so don't practice any more, or...?
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#434706 - 03/01/12 08:14 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
If we get the study done it will be with the students in my college after DT and Firearms class. Another research project done by Rose showed that cops who learned the straight arm bar three months later couldn't do it against resistive subject and 6 months later could tell you how to do it but couldn't perform it.
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#434707 - 03/01/12 09:35 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
hope Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Thank you for your answer above.

If you don't mind continued questions, how long will the students be in training, compared with the time out of training afterward (eg. they train for 3 weeks, and then 3 months later get tested?). Also, will they sign agreements saying they won't practice after training, or will you ask how much they practiced?

Do you mind sharing the Rose reference, because I have similar questions about his group of cops?


Edited by hope (03/01/12 09:36 PM)
_________________________
God grant me a good sword and no use for it. -- Polish proverb

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#434708 - 03/01/12 09:39 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: hope]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Humans are not animals...flinch-reflex responses are not instinct

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#434710 - 03/02/12 02:17 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
While yes that's technically true it's what most people know actions that don't require thinking as so it's a convenient term. And for the record we do have instincts, we do have in-born behavioral traits. No reputable psychologist in the world would tell you we're a blank slate anymore that hasn't been a well accepted idea since B.F. Skinner was alive and active.

Here's a resource on that by Stephen Pinker, a well-respected researcher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate also see twin studies. Our behavior is a combination of nature AND nurture, not one or the other.


This is bullocks...for every one reference about humans "having" instincts, there is one to refute


Um no sorry dude I'm minoring in psychology, I know what the latest research says, that's what's being taught, it's the consensus among psychologists that genetics is a source for some of our behavior. I actually cited an external source, what do you have to refute my claims with exactly? Twin studies proves that there's something to humans having instincts. We have lots of instincts, instincts for territoriality, instincts for protecting our offspring, natural fear of certain things. http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/Thoc/HumanInstincts.pdf you're arguing with the top psychologists of the world.
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#434711 - 03/02/12 02:20 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: duanew
To make your point you cite wikepedia?


Yes because A. I have the book cited in that wikipedia article so I know what it says and B. you can find the sources at the bottom. Wikipedia is fine for these kinds of things, I'm not writing a college paper here. Wikipedia tends to get fixed extremely quickly when people put BS down.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434712 - 03/02/12 02:25 AM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: 47MartialMan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: 47MartialMan
Humans are not animals...flinch-reflex responses are not instinct


Yes we are and yes they are by any technical definition. Dictionary definition of instinct: "An innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli" that's exactly what flinch-responses are, you're making up your own definitions for things.

LEO- we have several topics running here now. A. the value of training to deal with adrenaline effects in real fights B. whether or not humans have any instincts and C. whether or not split second responses applied under pressure (that don't require one to think through them as they are applied) can be remembered.

Duane- On Combat is phenomenal I have both that and On Killing. I'm not sure I agree with some things he claims but overall Grossman's work is excellent and seems pretty consistent with most research I've seen, as well as personal experiences and that of fellow soldiers who have been in combat. Training under stress does indeed improve our ability to handle the adrenaline effects involved in real life combat, the military has proven that and Grossman goes in depth on the studies done.


Edited by Stormdragon (03/02/12 02:32 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434724 - 03/04/12 11:19 PM Re: Adrenaline: How to get familiar with the effects? [Re: Stormdragon]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
A minor in psychology is not the basis to add credit to humans having instinct....


Edited by 47MartialMan (03/04/12 11:20 PM)

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