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#434547 - 01/28/12 06:41 AM The Guard
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Which guard do you prefer (closed, open, rubber, butterfly, half) and how do you use it? By that I mean do you look for sweeps, or more submissions, or what.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434548 - 01/28/12 07:27 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
duanew Offline
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Registered: 06/28/08
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Bodyguard, then I don't have to fight.
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#434549 - 01/28/12 07:52 AM Re: The Guard [Re: duanew]
Stormdragon Offline
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Awareness then you don't need a bodyguard. wink
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#434550 - 01/28/12 08:02 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Matakiant Offline
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Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
I wish I knew what all those rubbery butterflies meant but I prefer what would probably be considered a very closed guard the only thing I really change in my guard is the width of my stance.

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#434551 - 01/28/12 09:07 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Matakiant]
Stormdragon Offline
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I meant more of the submission grappling guards actually.
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#434552 - 01/29/12 03:33 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Matakiant Offline
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Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
Well sad to say I am not experienced there... Widening my stance is one of the responses to deal with takedowns.. Wish I could change that but nothing where I live smirk

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#434553 - 01/29/12 12:05 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Matakiant]
Stormdragon Offline
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Youtube my friend, that is the answer. laugh A wide stance helps but it goes far beyond that for guys get real deep or go for single leg takedowns. Then again where you are you may not need to worry about that anyway.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434555 - 01/30/12 04:34 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
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Posts: 2573
I have limited BJJ experience. Done a few classes with Gracie Barra and a Carslon Gracie Jr affiliate, but most of my BJJ has been in a Gracie Garage. We roll quite a bit, and recently my sparring partner and garage owner (who studied MMA for 4 years) has started adding gentle punches in to our rolling. That definitely changed my perspective on grappling!!

I've only played Butterfly guard a little bit. Didn't like it, I was too easy to hit (my sweeps aren't great though).

Not too keen on rubber guard either. Seems ok in theory, but it does require quite a bit of flexiblity. Some people have a better range of motion than others (even if everyone is stretching). It's a guard that is too attribute-specific to be well used IMO.

Generally I stay in closed guard. If nothing else it stops me getting hit better than any other guard you mentioned. I'm not terribly experienced in BJJ/Sub Wrestling/MMA though.

If we were just doing BJJ, I'd maybe play about with different guards. If we are rolling w/ punches, closed guard. Thing is though that I should really keep it consistant. I am trying to have the same game whether we are rolling w/ punches or not. If I go in to what I call "Sports BJJ mode" I might start doing things that would get me a slap in the chops in MMA sparring! As with anything in MMA, I use the acronym KISS:

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid!!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434556 - 01/30/12 08:46 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Dobbersky Offline
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Registered: 03/13/06
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Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Youtube my friend, that is the answer. laugh A wide stance helps but it goes far beyond that for guys get real deep or go for single leg takedowns. Then again where you are you may not need to worry about that anyway.


The 1 thing that gets me about youtube when you see BJJ challenges from other styles is that the Challenger looks like they're not even worthy of a Yellow belt let alone a Black Belt! The only time where I see some reality is on UFC

Then again, it depends on what rules they are "fighting to"!

The Guard needs to be natural, whatever one you take and it has to be adaptable against strikes from strikers and takedowns from grapplers.

If you've never done any grappling you will never know until it is too late how weak your guard is. the same for grapplers, they need to work on striking to know that they will have weak points in their guard that "authentic" strikers will find gaps in
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#434558 - 01/30/12 12:29 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Matakiant Offline
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Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Youtube my friend, that is the answer. laugh A wide stance helps but it goes far beyond that for guys get real deep or go for single leg takedowns. Then again where you are you may not need to worry about that anyway.


My teacher had great BJJ experience but moving had put that on hold as well and we never got to much grappling.

As for ever needing to know or not that's kind of irrelevant the chances of being attacked by someone who is proficient in any kind of grappling anywhere in the world is pretty slim.. I just want to be a better martial artist and being able to grapple is a big big part of that I think the striking part I have down quite well and that's something I can maintain speed and power wise, even improve, on my own.



Edited by Matakiant (01/30/12 12:30 PM)

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#434559 - 01/30/12 12:45 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Matakiant]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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I prefer open or butterfly guard to maintain mobility. Usually, in terms of my groundfighting, I am seeking to stand up or at least sweep to gain top position. If I can get a sub, I will, depending on the situation.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#434560 - 01/30/12 02:43 PM Re: The Guard [Re: MattJ]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: MattJ
I prefer open or butterfly guard to maintain mobility. Usually, in terms of my groundfighting, I am seeking to stand up or at least sweep to gain top position. If I can get a sub, I will, depending on the situation.


Ideally I'd like to escape too when punches are involved. I have at present limited sweeping options though (haven't trained them much!) and the only sub I can pull off as often as not is from the guard. I should mention we don't use gi's when we roll with punches. My life would be easier if we did ha ha!!

When strikes are involved it is way better (in my limited experience) to escape or get top position as soon as possible.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434562 - 01/30/12 04:49 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Matakiant]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Youtube my friend, that is the answer. laugh A wide stance helps but it goes far beyond that for guys get real deep or go for single leg takedowns. Then again where you are you may not need to worry about that anyway.


My teacher had great BJJ experience but moving had put that on hold as well and we never got to much grappling.

As for ever needing to know or not that's kind of irrelevant the chances of being attacked by someone who is proficient in any kind of grappling anywhere in the world is pretty slim.. I just want to be a better martial artist and being able to grapple is a big big part of that I think the striking part I have down quite well and that's something I can maintain speed and power wise, even improve, on my own.



In my area there's actually a ton of wrestlers so having good ground skill is important.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434563 - 01/30/12 05:04 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
I have limited BJJ experience. Done a few classes with Gracie Barra and a Carslon Gracie Jr affiliate, but most of my BJJ has been in a Gracie Garage. We roll quite a bit, and recently my sparring partner and garage owner (who studied MMA for 4 years) has started adding gentle punches in to our rolling. That definitely changed my perspective on grappling!!

I've only played Butterfly guard a little bit. Didn't like it, I was too easy to hit (my sweeps aren't great though).

Not too keen on rubber guard either. Seems ok in theory, but it does require quite a bit of flexiblity. Some people have a better range of motion than others (even if everyone is stretching). It's a guard that is too attribute-specific to be well used IMO.

Generally I stay in closed guard. If nothing else it stops me getting hit better than any other guard you mentioned. I'm not terribly experienced in BJJ/Sub Wrestling/MMA though.

If we were just doing BJJ, I'd maybe play about with different guards. If we are rolling w/ punches, closed guard. Thing is though that I should really keep it consistant. I am trying to have the same game whether we are rolling w/ punches or not. If I go in to what I call "Sports BJJ mode" I might start doing things that would get me a slap in the chops in MMA sparring! As with anything in MMA, I use the acronym KISS:

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid!!





Fantastic lineages to work under! As to getting hit in grappling, it tremendously changes things for sure. BJJ in mma is quite a bit different. Especially half guard. Closed guard is a good bet if you keep their posture broken, and honestly butterfly is great too, you just have to make sure you go for double underhooks or over under as soon as you can. I hear you on rubber guard, I really don't like it, some of our guys love it but they are also very lanky. It feels awkward for me, I only use it here and there to get the gogoplata which I rarely use. Open guard is really the best because it gives you the most offensive options, however it's also the easiest for someone to pass and hardest to defend strikes from as you pointed out so you really gotta have some skill already before working it for pure grappling let alone mma. I'm working open guard about as much as closed now but it's tricky. The key is to have a dynamic guard when open and keep changing the angles of your hips. Spider is another good one (ESPECIALLY with a gi on) that is particularly good against someone trying to hit you.

Whether you are dealing with strikes or not, some key points that make a huge difference would be not letting yourself be flattened out at any time, always angle your hips and keep your back rounded as much as possible. Also, establish control of their arms and head or hands and head whenever you can. And learn to see the guard as a place to attack from not just a place to survive.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/30/12 05:09 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434564 - 01/30/12 05:12 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Originally Posted By: MattJ
I prefer open or butterfly guard to maintain mobility. Usually, in terms of my groundfighting, I am seeking to stand up or at least sweep to gain top position. If I can get a sub, I will, depending on the situation.


Ideally I'd like to escape too when punches are involved. I have at present limited sweeping options though (haven't trained them much!) and the only sub I can pull off as often as not is from the guard. I should mention we don't use gi's when we roll with punches. My life would be easier if we did ha ha!!

When strikes are involved it is way better (in my limited experience) to escape or get top position as soon as possible.




All you really need is the scissor sweep (with the knee kick follow up if they base out) and hip bump sweep. Get really, really good at those and you'll be fine in the majority of situations. Both of them won't allow you to be hit. The elevator can be nice to have as well but I personally don't use it much. I've used the swing sweep off of a failed armbar a few times but the hip bump and scissor sweep are money man.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434565 - 01/30/12 05:24 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Dobbersky]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon
Youtube my friend, that is the answer. laugh A wide stance helps but it goes far beyond that for guys get real deep or go for single leg takedowns. Then again where you are you may not need to worry about that anyway.


The 1 thing that gets me about youtube when you see BJJ challenges from other styles is that the Challenger looks like they're not even worthy of a Yellow belt let alone a Black Belt! The only time where I see some reality is on UFC

Then again, it depends on what rules they are "fighting to"!

The Guard needs to be natural, whatever one you take and it has to be adaptable against strikes from strikers and takedowns from grapplers.

If you've never done any grappling you will never know until it is too late how weak your guard is. the same for grapplers, they need to work on striking to know that they will have weak points in their guard that "authentic" strikers will find gaps in


Yeah but in a lot of the challenge matches the BJJ guy had sloppy, primitive takedowns so it kind of balances out. That last paragraph really hit it though.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434567 - 01/30/12 05:54 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434569 - 01/31/12 07:53 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon


Whether you are dealing with strikes or not, some key points that make a huge difference would be not letting yourself be flattened out at any time, always angle your hips and keep your back rounded as much as possible. Also, establish control of their arms and head or hands and head whenever you can. And learn to see the guard as a place to attack from not just a place to survive.


Thanks for the tips, Storm. I'm very much at the stage of surviving in bad positions. I do view the guard as something defensive though at the moment. Hoping to expand upon that in the future! Part of what we use the guard for in training is to tire the other person out.

An interesting thing about the Gracie Academy philosophy (Gracie Garage uses their material) is that they say the person who will win the fight isn't the person who attacks the most, it's the person who exhausts the least. I think this comes from an older generation of BJJ when there were much more generous time limits on matches (or no time limits at all). I don't know how well this would work in a modern BJJ tourney where a person has 5 or 6 minutes in a match. And despite the Gracie Academy's claim that they are teaching "self defence" BJJ, I don't how wise it is to always wait for someone to exhaust themselves in a grappling contest.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434570 - 01/31/12 10:35 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon


Whether you are dealing with strikes or not, some key points that make a huge difference would be not letting yourself be flattened out at any time, always angle your hips and keep your back rounded as much as possible. Also, establish control of their arms and head or hands and head whenever you can. And learn to see the guard as a place to attack from not just a place to survive.


Thanks for the tips, Storm. I'm very much at the stage of surviving in bad positions. I do view the guard as something defensive though at the moment. Hoping to expand upon that in the future! Part of what we use the guard for in training is to tire the other person out.

An interesting thing about the Gracie Academy philosophy (Gracie Garage uses their material) is that they say the person who will win the fight isn't the person who attacks the most, it's the person who exhausts the least. I think this comes from an older generation of BJJ when there were much more generous time limits on matches (or no time limits at all). I don't know how well this would work in a modern BJJ tourney where a person has 5 or 6 minutes in a match. And despite the Gracie Academy's claim that they are teaching "self defence" BJJ, I don't how wise it is to always wait for someone to exhaust themselves in a grappling contest.



Until you've had a good year or year and a half it's best to focus maybe about 85% on survival and escape. That's the philosophy of Saulo and it makes a ton of sense. Early on I spent more training time rolling starting in bad positions just going for position and escape then rolling from a neutral position and attacking (though I train a lot and so I have always spend plenty of time on that too but I'm only now putting as much or more focus on attack and my top game).

Survival is kind of the main focus for a white belt, or should be anyway, passing and top control is what a blue belt should focus on, and purple and brown is supposed to be learning the multitude of attacks while black is just honing all of it and learning to teach. Now, of course at every level you learn attacks but the ratio of attack vs. defense changes. I don't follow this model perfectly but I've kind of been trained along those lines.

As for the wait them out and exhaust them thing, that's one school of thought, old school like you said. Very opportunistic, very BJJ as opposed to Sambo or submission wrestling. And to be honest you can actually somewhat do that in tournaments now. I use that approach quite a bit when I'm in side control (on bottom), and wait for them to get tired or just impatient and make a mistake and capitalize on it as opposed to constantly moving and really trying hard to fight out. Of course with 4-6 minute limits on time you have to use a toned down version of that tactic and be a little more active but you can still kind of do that. It's especially useful if the format doesn't use decisions on points and someone either wins by submission or it's a draw and you re-match. If it's pure BJJ I may even do that in mount (if I'm not doing GI-grappling) a bit. I used that approach a little in my last tournament which I took 1st in.

Now, from guard I'm very, very active looking for attacks and sweeps and eventually one will open up the other. I don't have the best technique or the fanciest, widest range of moves but I attack or go for sweeps relentlessly till I get something and eventually I usually do. Also, my top game is very active, I'm always chaining submissions and transitioning from one position to another. I'll get to side control and try to hit a few subs, then switch to knee on belly and work for something, or just make them uncomfortable then back to side control and into north south and so on. That works better for me than just solidifying position then pressuring and hanging out till they give me something as they try to escape.

With the guard, a lot of people think that they have a good guard if they can just lock it down and keep it for a really long time but against someone in decent shape with decent technique, you'll inevitably get your guard passed and then what good did it do for you? What's the point of the guard? You're in a position that gives you tons of options and you practically can't be attacked from, might as well use it. It's not like stalling out from a bad position where they can attack a lot of different ways which will give you openings to escape if you have a decent defense.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434571 - 01/31/12 02:53 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
That make senses, you can't stay in the guard forever!!

Seeing as you mentioned youtube Storm, is there anyone out there you enjoy watching in terms of their guard work? I mean are there any BJJ players or grapplers you think have a good guard and watch regularly?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434572 - 01/31/12 03:25 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
That make senses, you can't stay in the guard forever!!

Seeing as you mentioned youtube Storm, is there anyone out there you enjoy watching in terms of their guard work? I mean are there any BJJ players or grapplers you think have a good guard and watch regularly?




Marcelo Garcia has an amazing guard, an amazing bottom game (well he's good everywhere but what he does on bottom and with his guard is mesmerizing) and I love his videos. Ben Askren is, I believe the Bellator WW champ and a few years ago was one of the best collegiate wrestlers in the country, and there's a video of Marcelo absolutely tooling Askren easily. Askren would constantly go for top position and could do virtually nothing inside of Marcelo's guard, same with Jake Shields vs. Marcelo. Braulio Estima has real good guard stuff. Big Nog has probably the best guard material in the world for mma (he has a book on it called "The Guard" that is top notch), and Werdum is nearly as good. Those are my favorites but there's a lot of other guys with great guard stuff.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434573 - 01/31/12 03:30 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Loc: Salem, OR
Just a side note, for takedowns/throws, leg locks and submission entries from standing you can't go wrong with Sambo (look up NYC combat Sambo on youtube with Sambo Steve and Reilly Bodycomb) as well as Erik Paulsons stuff (Paulson also has a multitude of great neck cranks and leg locks, many that I've used effectively rolling even with decent guys).
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434575 - 01/31/12 04:18 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Absolutely check Eric Paulson's stuff. Really great.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#434579 - 02/01/12 05:48 AM Re: The Guard [Re: MattJ]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Thanks for tips guys! Braulio Estima comes over to Ireland about 3 or 4 times a year for seminars. The venue he usually goes to is about a 20 minute drive from my house. Really should go to one of the seminars lol!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434584 - 02/01/12 09:54 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Yeah you definitely should that would make for an amazing seminar, he's a beast!Him and Roger make a great team.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434592 - 02/02/12 04:56 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I really should make more of an effort to get to these seminars. Last year Carlson Gracie Junior was doing a 4 hour seminar over here for the princely sum of 35 (which is about $55).

Problem is BJJ is getting more and more popular here so there are nearly too many seminars that are easily accessible! For example in the last 6 months alone, within a one hour drive from my house there have been seminars from Braulio (x2), Ryron Gracie, Royce Gracie, Julio Fernandez, Matt Thornton and Chris Brennan. Really should take more advantage of all this lol!
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434626 - 02/14/12 09:58 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Thought I would add my .02 since I'm rarely ever here anymore.

And I haven't read any of the posts here, so...sorry I'm late to the party and step on toes.

I love playing the guard but look at it as a position of last resort. I prefer to play all types of guard positions - BUT, I am always looking to rise out of the guard. I use this to set up everything else depending on what my opponent is doing. Sometimes the energy he uses in trying to keep me from rising out is the catalyst to launch an attack.

I particularly like the open guard and rarely ever move into a classical closed guard position. You have to open your guard to hit virtually all attacks anyway, so it makes sense just to train the open guard from the get-go. If you're training with anyone worth a [censored], they will show you the controls and other fundamentals right out of the gate (to avoid having your guard passed) instead of just teaching attacks.

The way I use the guard is based on the SBG "APE guard concept. This is a highly 'active' guard that rarely "settles down". You try and bring pressure to bear on your opponent. This is again initiated by attempting to always rise OUT of the guard. Secondary to this would be trying to disrupt balance (sweeps/reversals) and submission/striking attacks. Putting all this pressure on your opponent is very offensive minded, but it's defensive at the same time, because if you're not busy, it's going to be a short night (particularly no-gi).

Anyway...just a few thoughts. Sorry if this has been repeated elsewhere.


-John

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#434659 - 02/23/12 04:58 PM Re: The Guard [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: JKogas
Thought I would add my .02 since I'm rarely ever here anymore.

And I haven't read any of the posts here, so...sorry I'm late to the party and step on toes.

I love playing the guard but look at it as a position of last resort. I prefer to play all types of guard positions - BUT, I am always looking to rise out of the guard. I use this to set up everything else depending on what my opponent is doing. Sometimes the energy he uses in trying to keep me from rising out is the catalyst to launch an attack.

I particularly like the open guard and rarely ever move into a classical closed guard position. You have to open your guard to hit virtually all attacks anyway, so it makes sense just to train the open guard from the get-go. If you're training with anyone worth a [censored], they will show you the controls and other fundamentals right out of the gate (to avoid having your guard passed) instead of just teaching attacks.

The way I use the guard is based on the SBG "APE guard concept. This is a highly 'active' guard that rarely "settles down". You try and bring pressure to bear on your opponent. This is again initiated by attempting to always rise OUT of the guard. Secondary to this would be trying to disrupt balance (sweeps/reversals) and submission/striking attacks. Putting all this pressure on your opponent is very offensive minded, but it's defensive at the same time, because if you're not busy, it's going to be a short night (particularly no-gi).

Anyway...just a few thoughts. Sorry if this has been repeated elsewhere.


-John


I believe in training closed guard first, even with it's very limited range of attacks simply because it's a more survival oriented method which I think is priority for new people. It's a defensive position and gives people time to think and chill out while stifling their opponents offense. And it's simpler. That's just me though. Your guard approach seems a bit different than mine, but I imagine yours is better for mma. I do seek top position from the get go and if I get a good chance to sweep I will but I also will often just happily work from guard and stay there if I somehow get put there and attack. In BJJ rising out isn't necessarily always my priority. It depends on what my opponent gives me, I just go with the flow, whatever I feel like doing at the moment and whatever openings I happen to see I never really have a set goal of "ok I'm in open guard now I'll sweep, take mount, and submit." Almost all I do is no-gi and I'll actually sometimes just sit, chill out and only be busy enough to stifle their attacks and keep them shifting and bait them with something of my own. Of course with some guys though I'm fighting hard to escape. Or just wait till they attack and get out then. In training I pull guard all the time just to make sure I'm working on all eventualities. It's not always a very pretty or dominant style but meh, I get wins.


Edited by Stormdragon (02/23/12 05:03 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434661 - 02/23/12 11:26 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
It also depends on who you're fighting with on the street. And what kind of competitions you are doing.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434774 - 03/09/12 08:14 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Hey Prizewriter, do you know much about Marcelo Brigadeiro and how good he is?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434775 - 03/10/12 10:14 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Never heard of him Storm. Just googled him though, he seems pretty good though! I don't know much about Luta Livre in general, or how much different it is from BJJ.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434781 - 03/12/12 03:24 AM Re: The Guard [Re: Prizewriter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I've been watching some of his videos lately after taking an interest in Luta Livre off of my research into Catch Wrestling and Sambo. It seems as though traditionally under Helio and Carlos Gracie there was no BJJ without a gi. Obviously that has not been the case for quite some time but when they founded their art that was their philosophy. A lot of people couldn't afford a gi and belt and it was kind of a high class thing to do. So a group of guys from a boating club of all things got together and, with some Vale Tudo experience, combined wrestling with Judo and some elements of BJJ I believe to create Luta Livre. It was basically No-gi BJJ but with a lot of wrestling and submissions including that traditionally were looked down upon by the Gracies such as leg locks and neck cranks (which are still usually discouraged and not taught till advanced belts). The two arts had a huge rivalry but Luta Livre has since fallen by the wayside due to the superior marketing practices of the Gracies, and the Gracies coaxed a lot of LL guys over to their camps (Babalu being one). Seems like it's somewhat popular in Europe though and Brazil still. It's sort of Brazilian Catch wrestling I guess. Cacareco is a LL fighter (he owned Filho in a grappling match). It's a lot of the same basic stuff as no-gi BJJ but again they teach leg locks and neck cranks from day 1 and compete with them at all levels, and there is a slight difference in philosophy though everyone has their own flavor or style and can make different arts look very similar.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434796 - 03/15/12 04:06 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Weighing in on the Guard as it has always been my favorite training position....

It pretty much depends on what the situation is and who you are playing against. I say playing because if we are not playing but fighting, then I want to absolutely get off my back and off the floor. Closed, Half, Deep Half, Butterfly, X all tend to keep you on your back and rely on staying connected and Sweeping to a better position.

Open Guard with the feet in the hips and to a lesser degree, DeLaRiva keep your opponent at leg's length where he is less able to reach your Command Center with punches. All my students learn how to push someone away and stand up as their first Guard "technique".

Again, as the rules change, so does the game. Strictly Grappling, I very rarely will lock someone into a Traditional Closed Guard in training because I hate stalling the action. If in trouble, I may go there to weather the storm but once I regroup, I will get back to attacking... which again allows me to stay connected to my "A-Game" of controlling distance and preserving an exit strategy.
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#434797 - 03/15/12 06:11 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Fletch1]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Thanks Fletch, good to hear from you! Had a snoop on your website... congrats on getting your black belt! Seems well deserved for all your commitment and hard work.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434798 - 03/16/12 01:43 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Prizewriter]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Thanks, buddy. I appreciate it. If anything, it reaffirms that you essentially start over and although everyone thinks you are at the top, you realize there how much you don't know. I still roll with everyone and it keeps me honest.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#434823 - 03/23/12 07:13 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Fletch1]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Fletch1
Weighing in on the Guard as it has always been my favorite training position....

It pretty much depends on what the situation is and who you are playing against. I say playing because if we are not playing but fighting, then I want to absolutely get off my back and off the floor. Closed, Half, Deep Half, Butterfly, X all tend to keep you on your back and rely on staying connected and Sweeping to a better position.

Open Guard with the feet in the hips and to a lesser degree, DeLaRiva keep your opponent at leg's length where he is less able to reach your Command Center with punches. All my students learn how to push someone away and stand up as their first Guard "technique".

Again, as the rules change, so does the game. Strictly Grappling, I very rarely will lock someone into a Traditional Closed Guard in training because I hate stalling the action. If in trouble, I may go there to weather the storm but once I regroup, I will get back to attacking... which again allows me to stay connected to my "A-Game" of controlling distance and preserving an exit strategy.


I like your thinking. Great points, for self defense that's the best philosophy. I've actually found lately that butterfly, or half butterfly rather, can really easily allow you to off balance and tip over your opponent allowing you to escape if you don't fully complete the basic butterfly sweep. Cain used it against Brock to stand back up I believe. De La Riva has been useful for exactly what you mentioned as well. Great for knocking people over while you stand up and leave. About sweeps, while in self defense stand ups and escapes are most important sweeping can also be good since once you sweep to a dominant position you can typically drop some real easy disabling shots and then get up and away. Especially if you transition to knee on belly that's probably best for self defense as far as viable top positions.


Edited by Stormdragon (03/23/12 07:20 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#434824 - 03/23/12 07:20 PM Re: The Guard [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
And yes congrats on getting your black, that's awesome man! Not easy to get in BJJ. I need to get around to doing gi training so my instructor can promote me. I'm told I'm at about mid blue based on rolling ability and overall knowledge I just lack the gi techniques.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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