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#435006 - 04/11/12 05:40 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
First and most importantly, kata lacks resistance in its training. Everyone performs better when there is no pressure. Simply because you do it well in the air doesnt mean that it will be so in self defense and that can be dangerous.


This is where many people get stuck at...
Kata isn't meant to be solo practice in my opinion. It's merely the beginning stage of kata practice.
Maybe it is because of karate and TKD's fast expansion due to introduction to the educational systems that this important part of training got overlooked?

One of the merits of kata is that it can be practised to certain extent alone. However the further training of kata (bunkai oyo) needs a partner.

But in the unfortunate situation of a fight, the chance that someones opponent knows that he/she's applying principles from kata are very slim. I wouldn't even stick to one kata's principles per se, because I know a couple that have great techniques and principles suitable for mixing up.
Which will leave an opponent guessing (about what happens or in the rare occasion about what kata).
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#435007 - 04/11/12 06:55 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: choonbee
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
All because YOUR experience isn't as good as everyone elses

Thanks


That's quite an assumption.
So I take it that you have used kata to defend yourself against skilled grapplers and/or boxers in real life situations (ie; not at the dojang) where they were actually trying to hurt you?



Yes
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#435008 - 04/11/12 07:49 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ives]
Dobbersky Offline
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What you got to do is TRUST your training. I've been practicing and teaching martial arts for many years and I've seen it happen where the kata in the competitions looks really nice and pretty but when it comes to fighting all that training goes out of the window. When I've stood on the corner of my students and given them details of strategy to see them under pressure go
into "survival mode"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b6a2VH5HJg

is something we work on a lot those same students now totally trust their Kata and now stick to it completely and are able to come out on top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P9mC1LHrDo

Closest I can find to Ashihara Karate (GSP is a Kyokushin Fighter Knockdown just like me)

This is the beauty of Ashihara and Enshin Karate. All the kata taught is Jissen (real combat) I have used this kata on varying occations and not fallen short of MY expectations.

The first Kata we practice Shoshin No Kata Sono Ichi,has 3 levels, basic striking as shown in many You Tube videos, basic stand up Grappling AND Groundwork (from your back).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XztSNwYdFwA

This is how we compete

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhbgdcvnv-U&feature=related
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#435019 - 04/11/12 12:44 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
MattJ Offline
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The easiest way to get trust in your technique is to try it out under some resistance. Without ever trying, it's difficut to know what is going to work for you.
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#435022 - 04/11/12 12:56 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
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Ives,

I didnt mean to imply that an opponent would identify the kata itself or a portion of it. He doesn't have to. All he has to identify is that everytime he throws an overhand right that your response is high block to reverse punch, for example.

Muscle memory is great for a singular technique, but a hinderance to a fighter when it becomes pattern and habit.

Leo,

I was referring to ALL traditional M in general, as well as TKD, Moo Duk Kwan being the branch that I studied. Also, I have to mention that most TKD sparring is stop and go, point style sparring. I believe that it isnt suitable for combat and defense training as it doesnt realisticall aproach combat and can give younger or less experienced students a false sense of security.

For kata to be truly effective it must be streamlined, IMO. Remove the mystery and mysticism. Openly teach bunkai. Worry less with patterns and more with application against progressive levels of resistance. Worry less about number of techniques and focus on more realistic and simple aproaches.

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#435035 - 04/12/12 01:56 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Chen Zen, at least WTF TKD has been whittled down to mostly a kicking martial art when it traditionally has a very wide range of techniques. Since the techniques are not taught in class apart from during the Poomsae, most people have no idea what these techniques are for or how they should be applied. I'm not saying that Kata are practical or even good teaching tools, I'm saying that the techniques contained in Kata (and often annoyingly hidden away in the case of TKD) are important.

WTF TKD matches are won by knock out, TKO or points after several rounds are finished. You continue fighting when a point is scored without stopping. This is technically not any different from a boxing match, it's certainly not stop and go. I don't know about how ITF TKD matches are organized.

The problem with WTF TKD matches is that there is too much emphasis on kicking techniques due to the scoring of head kicks vs hand techniques, as well as the torso padding worn which makes hand techniques less effective. This certainly creates bad habits for self defense, especially if you look at the guard used in TKD, which is useless for defending against punches and/or the clinch. Introducing hand techniques which are taught in patterns into training and sparring would make WTF TKD more generally effective.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (04/12/12 01:58 AM)
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#435037 - 04/12/12 05:08 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Ken, I don't think you ment to address me in your post about TRUST in your training.
I have trust in my training, that also includes kata practice, which we do like MattJ suggests; under some resistance.
Chen Zen, muscle memory won't be limited to a single technique. If someone has a good foundation in kata, he/she will feel when and what different techniques could be applied in certain situations, then and there.

Quote:
Worry less with patterns and more with application against progressive levels of resistance. Worry less about number of techniques and focus on more realistic and simple aproaches.

That first line sums up how I practice kata, minus the worry less.

I'd rather say: Worry less about the number of kata, but deepen your understanding. By doing so, you'll come to see realistic and simple aproaches to application.
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#435039 - 04/12/12 07:50 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ives]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Ives
Ken, I don't think you ment to address me in your post about TRUST in your training.
I have trust in my training, that also includes kata practice, which we do like MattJ suggests; under some resistance.


Ives, my friend you are correct, I think there were several responses and it just refers to the last poster, whether related or not

OSU!!!
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#435047 - 04/13/12 12:06 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Leo_E_49]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Leo,

I dont know a lot about the diferent branches of TKD. My first TKD class was Moo Duk Kwan. It was a small class and outside of ITF WTF or ATA. That particular schol offered Muay Thai and JKD. The curriculum was different as well as the approach to sparring, which was more intense than I had previously expereinced. a few years after I left that class, I joined a ATA school. I never fought any matches with them, but there sparring sessions were based on points. Head kicks being worth the most, as you mentioned. However, after a point was scored the match was reset, and actual contact seemed to be frowned upon. Thats not to say that all schools train this way, however, TKD is fast becoming a sport dominated art and its destroying its original purpose.

The Moo Duk Kwan class had plenty of hand strikes as well as stand up grappling. Knees and elbows were also used. At its core TKD can still be a fighting art but the majority out there is no longer. Instead its soccer in Gi's.

Ives,

Now thats the right way. Less patterns but more involvement with key movements. Certain patterns always work well, like a 1-2 punch. Isolate these smaller aspects, teach them opnly and allow the students to develope certain habits or patterns themselves rather than burying a few jewels in a maze of stances and flowery movement. Encourage a students crativity and adaptability rathern than say "Do this this way, because this is the way its always been and thats right".
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#435051 - 04/13/12 05:04 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
@Chen Zen - I'm glad you like my view on the matter.
However, before a student can choose a couple of kata that he/she might delve deeper into, he/she should be introduced to a certain curriculum (we have a total of 14 kata, 3 being kihon(fundamentals/basics) kata that are learnt for the 3 different belt colours before shodan/BB and 8 that the student is introduced to before BB).
The student can then get a feel about what kata suit him/her based personal preferences.
Then one or two can become their main focus points in regards to kata (deeper study).
This will aid their other kata aswell, since many techniques and combination and therefor applications aren't unique to a single kata.
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