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#434443 - 01/07/12 10:35 PM Food for thought
Galen Offline
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Registered: 11/07/04
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http://themartialarts-throughtheseeyes.blogspot.com/

Hello all! Its been a while. Thought I would drop this link off. Hope everyone is well!
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#434444 - 01/08/12 07:04 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Galen]
Prizewriter Offline
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That was a pretty good read and the author made their points well. Thanks for sharing!
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#434449 - 01/09/12 08:49 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
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That Article was rather good, it raised several questions within oneself as well as answered several that were until recently unanswered
Thanks for Sharing this with us
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#434488 - 01/17/12 09:06 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
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Pretty much sums up my thoughts on Kata.. Surprised there isn't some major outrage or argument breaking out here...

I'm just glad I didn't spend 5, 10 or 20 years learning Kata thinking it would make me a good ''fighter'' or give me the skills to defend myself to realize it doesn't.

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#434489 - 01/17/12 09:17 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Matakiant]
duanew Offline
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So you love kata because it's fun?
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#434490 - 01/18/12 07:57 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: duanew]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: duanew
So you love kata because it's fun?


I love the article but I always use Kata to fight with but is that because my kata is useful for kumite being Ashihara kata but one of my favourites is a few techniques out of Pinan Sandan
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#434491 - 01/18/12 08:08 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: duanew]
Ives Offline
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I find his view on kata a little limited.
While studying the kata of the style I practice, I have found many ways to apply certain techniques from kata. Kata also helps positioning yourself against an opponent. If you fail to realise that kata is stylised on embusen, then you can't really discover what is going on. Take for example the more 'basic bunkai' of throws on turning points in kata and the ways in which a gedanbarai can be used. (Downward block in my opinion is way to limited to describe this 'low sweeping recieve'.)
The writer does offer nice approach on the matter.
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#434495 - 01/20/12 08:22 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ives]
duanew Offline
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It also teaches defensive and offensive stepping patterns,Pinan, Naifanchi, Chinto, Gojushiho, etc. all teach different concepts. If you're not learning the concepts that might be why you don't see the value in kata.
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#434496 - 01/20/12 09:37 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: duanew]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: duanew
It also teaches defensive and offensive stepping patterns,Pinan, Naifanchi, Chinto, Gojushiho, etc. all teach different concepts. If you're not learning the concepts that might be why you don't see the value in kata.


Solid Post!!!!
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#434928 - 04/06/12 09:02 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
choonbee Offline
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I think doing kata is like taking the slow boat to China.
It may be useful when you're sparring in a controlled setting with another karataka, but if you tangle with someone who is proficient at jui-jitsu, or a good boxer who knows how to distance himself properly, or even a smart street fighter, and try to use kata, you're gonna get smoked, and fast.
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#434937 - 04/07/12 12:04 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
iaibear Offline
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I have always looked at kata as a way to practice alone and keep your moves smooth and precise when you do not have a partner or dojo to practice in.

Kata can also be a physical memory assist, so techniques do not get lost.

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#434952 - 04/09/12 10:43 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: choonbee
I think doing kata is like taking the slow boat to China.
It may be useful when you're sparring in a controlled setting with another KarateKa, but if you tangle with someone who is proficient at jiu-jitsu, or a good boxer who knows how to distance himself properly, or even a smart street fighter, and try to use kata, you're gonna get smoked, and fast.


Not necessarily IF you are taught kata properly it WILL be useful against many attackers including Jujitsu fighters etc. In the Pinan/Heian kata there is double leg take down defence, Naihanchi/Tekki kata can be used as a groundfighting. Kata, need I say any more
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#434954 - 04/09/12 07:35 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
choonbee Offline
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If you say so......
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#434972 - 04/10/12 06:19 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Ives Offline
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Originally Posted By: choonbee
I think doing kata is like taking the slow boat to China.
It may be useful when you're sparring in a controlled setting with another karataka, but if you tangle with someone who is proficient at jui-jitsu, or a good boxer who knows how to distance himself properly, or even a smart street fighter, and try to use kata, you're gonna get smoked, and fast.


That's why a karateka should seek to understand kata.
All I can thnik of is that your view is probably a bit limited as your knowledge on kata probably is. (I don't know.)
I think a boxer will have a disadvantage against a karateka who'll be used to grappling, striking and kicking (all contained in kata), since a boxers arsenal basically comes down to arms (punches).

Smart street fighters?? Someone smart would try to avoid fighting.
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#434974 - 04/10/12 09:52 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: choonbee
If you say so......


I don't say so, I know so...... Choonbee, Its Korean, most TSD/TKD forms are just for passing grades only, they didn't get the full explaination from their Japanese Teachers

All because YOUR experience isn't as good as everyone elses, doesn't mean you're right and everyone else is wrong

Thanks

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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#434978 - 04/10/12 11:30 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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I second this. Most of the real practical techniques in TKD are found in the patterns. It is just about looking in the right places. I'm surprised that we don't get taught them explicitly. Patterns are much more than just dances,especially the higher belt patterns. That said, I still don't think it's enough to defend against a grappler without cross training.
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#434992 - 04/10/12 05:36 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Leo_E_49]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Leo_E_49
I second this. Most of the real practical techniques in TKD are found in the patterns. It is just about looking in the right places. I'm surprised that we don't get taught them explicitly. Patterns are much more than just dances,especially the higher belt patterns. That said, I still don't think it's enough to defend against a grappler without cross training.


I second this too! I spent 4 years on Tang Soo Do, have an superb application to Chil Sung Ee Ro Hyung - including arm bars, groundwork and neck wrenches etc PM me you email if you known this Hyung and I'll send you the details.
I'm working through Koryo Poomsae at present and I will give everyone details of what I found and I think get it on YouTube for you all to see!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434995 - 04/10/12 08:24 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
choonbee Offline
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Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 195
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
All because YOUR experience isn't as good as everyone elses

Thanks


That's quite an assumption.
So I take it that you have used kata to defend yourself against skilled grapplers and/or boxers in real life situations (ie; not at the dojang) where they were actually trying to hurt you?
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#434997 - 04/10/12 10:15 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Chen Zen Offline
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I used to train kata religously. Everyday, working the patterns of Moo Duk Kwan.

I havent done a form in over ten years now. There are some merits to kata, such as muscle memory, and the perfection of techniques,but it lacks much to be considered a "Complete" training regimen.

First and most importantly, kata lacks resistance in its training. Everyone performs better when there is no pressure. Simply because you do it well in the air doesnt mean that it will be so in self defense and that can be dangerous.

Secondly, Kata developes pattern. Order and pattern has no place in the chaos that is battle. The best fighter is a mystery undefinable by his opponent. You cannot stop what you cannot anticipate. You cant expect the outcome to be good if your reaction to a given situation is the same everytime. As a fighter, if I know what you are doing or going to do, you will not do it without being punished for it.

Third, I would suggest that most traditional systems are too expansive, Encompassing too many techniques. You dont need 500 techniques. In fact you probably would do better with less than 100. As for striking, I utilize around fifteen techniques regularly. Even with so few a number, there are virtually endless variations to techniques and combos. Reaction time is key to defense and you simply dont react as fast if you have too many options to weigh.

Humbly, CZ
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Lao Tzu

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#434999 - 04/11/12 02:52 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Chen Zen, I would normally agree with you if we were considering any MA other than TKD. However, I think that in the case of TKD, it is so focussed on kicking and sparring that a careful analysis of the Poomsae will benefit most students. There are numerous hand techniques, including a lot of clinch work and a few unorthodox throws (e.g. the "knee break" in Koryo, which is more practical as a throw) which round out the style very well. Most people ignore these, which I think is a pity.

I still think that these techniques are only really useful if you have cross training in a grappling MA, otherwise getting them to work would be very hit-and-miss. Understanding balance, gripping and being able to unbalance your opponent are missing entirely from the TKD Poomsae. As is training with resistance, as you said.
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#435006 - 04/11/12 05:40 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Ives Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chen Zen
First and most importantly, kata lacks resistance in its training. Everyone performs better when there is no pressure. Simply because you do it well in the air doesnt mean that it will be so in self defense and that can be dangerous.


This is where many people get stuck at...
Kata isn't meant to be solo practice in my opinion. It's merely the beginning stage of kata practice.
Maybe it is because of karate and TKD's fast expansion due to introduction to the educational systems that this important part of training got overlooked?

One of the merits of kata is that it can be practised to certain extent alone. However the further training of kata (bunkai oyo) needs a partner.

But in the unfortunate situation of a fight, the chance that someones opponent knows that he/she's applying principles from kata are very slim. I wouldn't even stick to one kata's principles per se, because I know a couple that have great techniques and principles suitable for mixing up.
Which will leave an opponent guessing (about what happens or in the rare occasion about what kata).
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#435007 - 04/11/12 06:55 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: choonbee]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: choonbee
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
All because YOUR experience isn't as good as everyone elses

Thanks


That's quite an assumption.
So I take it that you have used kata to defend yourself against skilled grapplers and/or boxers in real life situations (ie; not at the dojang) where they were actually trying to hurt you?



Yes
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#435008 - 04/11/12 07:49 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ives]
Dobbersky Offline
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What you got to do is TRUST your training. I've been practicing and teaching martial arts for many years and I've seen it happen where the kata in the competitions looks really nice and pretty but when it comes to fighting all that training goes out of the window. When I've stood on the corner of my students and given them details of strategy to see them under pressure go
into "survival mode"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b6a2VH5HJg

is something we work on a lot those same students now totally trust their Kata and now stick to it completely and are able to come out on top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P9mC1LHrDo

Closest I can find to Ashihara Karate (GSP is a Kyokushin Fighter Knockdown just like me)

This is the beauty of Ashihara and Enshin Karate. All the kata taught is Jissen (real combat) I have used this kata on varying occations and not fallen short of MY expectations.

The first Kata we practice Shoshin No Kata Sono Ichi,has 3 levels, basic striking as shown in many You Tube videos, basic stand up Grappling AND Groundwork (from your back).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XztSNwYdFwA

This is how we compete

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhbgdcvnv-U&feature=related
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#435019 - 04/11/12 12:44 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
MattJ Offline
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The easiest way to get trust in your technique is to try it out under some resistance. Without ever trying, it's difficut to know what is going to work for you.
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#435022 - 04/11/12 12:56 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Chen Zen Offline
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Ives,

I didnt mean to imply that an opponent would identify the kata itself or a portion of it. He doesn't have to. All he has to identify is that everytime he throws an overhand right that your response is high block to reverse punch, for example.

Muscle memory is great for a singular technique, but a hinderance to a fighter when it becomes pattern and habit.

Leo,

I was referring to ALL traditional M in general, as well as TKD, Moo Duk Kwan being the branch that I studied. Also, I have to mention that most TKD sparring is stop and go, point style sparring. I believe that it isnt suitable for combat and defense training as it doesnt realisticall aproach combat and can give younger or less experienced students a false sense of security.

For kata to be truly effective it must be streamlined, IMO. Remove the mystery and mysticism. Openly teach bunkai. Worry less with patterns and more with application against progressive levels of resistance. Worry less about number of techniques and focus on more realistic and simple aproaches.

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#435035 - 04/12/12 01:56 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Chen Zen, at least WTF TKD has been whittled down to mostly a kicking martial art when it traditionally has a very wide range of techniques. Since the techniques are not taught in class apart from during the Poomsae, most people have no idea what these techniques are for or how they should be applied. I'm not saying that Kata are practical or even good teaching tools, I'm saying that the techniques contained in Kata (and often annoyingly hidden away in the case of TKD) are important.

WTF TKD matches are won by knock out, TKO or points after several rounds are finished. You continue fighting when a point is scored without stopping. This is technically not any different from a boxing match, it's certainly not stop and go. I don't know about how ITF TKD matches are organized.

The problem with WTF TKD matches is that there is too much emphasis on kicking techniques due to the scoring of head kicks vs hand techniques, as well as the torso padding worn which makes hand techniques less effective. This certainly creates bad habits for self defense, especially if you look at the guard used in TKD, which is useless for defending against punches and/or the clinch. Introducing hand techniques which are taught in patterns into training and sparring would make WTF TKD more generally effective.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (04/12/12 01:58 AM)
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#435037 - 04/12/12 05:08 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Ives Offline
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Ken, I don't think you ment to address me in your post about TRUST in your training.
I have trust in my training, that also includes kata practice, which we do like MattJ suggests; under some resistance.
Chen Zen, muscle memory won't be limited to a single technique. If someone has a good foundation in kata, he/she will feel when and what different techniques could be applied in certain situations, then and there.

Quote:
Worry less with patterns and more with application against progressive levels of resistance. Worry less about number of techniques and focus on more realistic and simple aproaches.

That first line sums up how I practice kata, minus the worry less.

I'd rather say: Worry less about the number of kata, but deepen your understanding. By doing so, you'll come to see realistic and simple aproaches to application.
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#435039 - 04/12/12 07:50 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ives]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ives
Ken, I don't think you ment to address me in your post about TRUST in your training.
I have trust in my training, that also includes kata practice, which we do like MattJ suggests; under some resistance.


Ives, my friend you are correct, I think there were several responses and it just refers to the last poster, whether related or not

OSU!!!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#435047 - 04/13/12 12:06 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Leo_E_49]
Chen Zen Offline
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Leo,

I dont know a lot about the diferent branches of TKD. My first TKD class was Moo Duk Kwan. It was a small class and outside of ITF WTF or ATA. That particular schol offered Muay Thai and JKD. The curriculum was different as well as the approach to sparring, which was more intense than I had previously expereinced. a few years after I left that class, I joined a ATA school. I never fought any matches with them, but there sparring sessions were based on points. Head kicks being worth the most, as you mentioned. However, after a point was scored the match was reset, and actual contact seemed to be frowned upon. Thats not to say that all schools train this way, however, TKD is fast becoming a sport dominated art and its destroying its original purpose.

The Moo Duk Kwan class had plenty of hand strikes as well as stand up grappling. Knees and elbows were also used. At its core TKD can still be a fighting art but the majority out there is no longer. Instead its soccer in Gi's.

Ives,

Now thats the right way. Less patterns but more involvement with key movements. Certain patterns always work well, like a 1-2 punch. Isolate these smaller aspects, teach them opnly and allow the students to develope certain habits or patterns themselves rather than burying a few jewels in a maze of stances and flowery movement. Encourage a students crativity and adaptability rathern than say "Do this this way, because this is the way its always been and thats right".
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Lao Tzu

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#435051 - 04/13/12 05:04 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Ives Offline
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@Chen Zen - I'm glad you like my view on the matter.
However, before a student can choose a couple of kata that he/she might delve deeper into, he/she should be introduced to a certain curriculum (we have a total of 14 kata, 3 being kihon(fundamentals/basics) kata that are learnt for the 3 different belt colours before shodan/BB and 8 that the student is introduced to before BB).
The student can then get a feel about what kata suit him/her based personal preferences.
Then one or two can become their main focus points in regards to kata (deeper study).
This will aid their other kata aswell, since many techniques and combination and therefor applications aren't unique to a single kata.
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#435055 - 04/13/12 08:30 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ives]
Dobbersky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ives
@Chen Zen - I'm glad you like my view on the matter.
However, before a student can choose a couple of kata that he/she might delve deeper into, he/she should be introduced to a certain curriculum (we have a total of 14 kata, 3 being kihon(fundamentals/basics) kata that are learnt for the 3 different belt colours before shodan/BB and 8 that the student is introduced to before BB).
The student can then get a feel about what kata suit him/her based personal preferences.
Then one or two can become their main focus points in regards to kata (deeper study).
This will aid their other kata aswell, since many techniques and combination and therefor applications aren't unique to a single kata.


Totally agree with this

We have 17 kata, all with basic application, but I allow my students to pick a couple of kata to work with to find a deeper meaning
We only teach Ground work on the First Kata as it fits so much better although many of the techniques in this kata can be found in the "higher" katas
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#435064 - 04/14/12 01:21 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Chen Zen Offline
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What you guys are describing now sounds like my TKD experience. I probably learned around a dozen or so forms but I only practiced 3 regularly. The rest were learned long enough for gradings. The exerience i had there was worlds apart however, from the other TKD schools I would visit later, which eventually drove me from the art. It simly seemed that th art was a lesser for of its original self. That, rather than growing and evoloving as time passed, it had regressed to pattern learning for BB manufacturing.
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#435116 - 04/25/12 09:56 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Chen Zen:

<<kata lacks resistance in its training.

With respect, I believe you are mistaken... the ability to demonstrate the initial rote movements is eating no deeper than the surface skin of the apple.

True the surface of kata does not have resistance... initially.
And if that surface were the entirety of kata, (ie only the rote movements), then what was taught was severely incomplete.

The "resistance" you speak of comes from the 2nd stage of kata training; the application of these movements. As with basic techniques, or the initial learning of the form movements, application takes time to learn well.

There is no instant. It takes a very long time to learn how to cope with the different factors, issues that every different body presents. Can someone pull them off... maybe. The more time I spend at the tiny pieces of the bigger kata, my body will learn how to adjust subconsciously.

<<you do it well in the air doesn't mean that it will be so in self defense and that can be dangerous.

The same argument can be made with nuclear bombs, guns, swords, or bare handed. The ability to make no mistakes, or to actually pull the proverbial trigger is entirely simulated until the real thing happens. Myself, I will gladly take the risk...
The intensity of training I find quite sufficient, these are people I know (and mostly like) they won't pull back, I will try not to hurt them either. If I give them the chance, they can and will harm me... with regret! sick

<<Order and pattern has no place in the chaos that is battle.

Ridiculous.

Response that is not deeply trained, deeply ingrained will make greater mistakes. Of course we cannot include ALL factors but we can explore all kinds of basic scenarios pretty thoroughly.
You have to begin training somewhere... build a foundation.

<<The best fighter is a mystery undefinable by his opponent.

You are talking about the "red fighter", the primitive. His/her nemesis is someone who is ACTIVELY absorbing information, actively noting their opponent(s) mistakes, habits, patterns. These people are "white fighters", sharp-shooters. One shot and the situation is ended if they are effective with their skills.

<<if I know what you are doing or going to do, you will not do it without being punished

Of course, but unknown to one another, we are both mysteries to each other. We assess quickly, whomever is better at it, should have advantages.

<<Third, I would suggest that most traditional systems are too expansive, Encompassing too many techniques.

My art has a grand total of ten punches, and seven kicks. There are seven stances and a grand total of ten unarmed kata, and a fist full of various weapons forms. The numbers you mention I think cover some very particular arts; Shitoryu Karate in particular comes to mind. The majority of our "Korean airborne cousins" as well. Not all by any means, but a great many seem to subdivide and separate their art into shredded self-contained parts/pieces.

Self-defense is not something entirely different or seperate to kata centric arts. For them the opposite in fact is true. But for those who can remember that tsunami of isolated, separate 5,000 (?) techniques, that many insane disjointed parts I say bless them!

I agree too many different responses has definate and entirely avoidable risks.

Humbly as well,

Jeff

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#435117 - 04/25/12 11:08 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ronin1966]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ah, Hello Ronin,

A well thought response,as always. Thank You.
I always enjoy talking to TMA, especially Karateka. I believe that perhaps Karateka take more pride and passion in there art than all others. That's mostly a good thing, as long as it doesnt blind. While your personal experience may work resistance in its kata, this isnt prevalent in TMA, as a whole.
To be quiet frank, TMA isnt known for its contact, where other arts, such as Muay Thai are well known for thre contact. It is this contact and "ALIVE" training that defins the practic of MMA.

As for how you train resistance in our kata, I ask you these things.
How do you work in the resistance? Sparring? Drilling? Kumite?
When you work the resistance, are you confined to using that particualar technique or movement?
What are your opponents options or limits?

To the next point, patterns. Im not saying that there shouldn't be repitition in technique to achieve proficiency. What Im saying is that certain movements grouped together in a pattern isnt a good thing. The "white fighter", as you mentioned, is going to note these and exploit them. Take note of a western boxer, for instance. He has a very limited arsenal, yet he can be quiet deceptive and effective. With very few patterns. You gave a list of your curriculum and I must say it dwarfes mine.

I have six punches, five kicks, thats counting knees and elbows. About six submission holds for grappling.I Train gun and knife, and nunchuckas for fun.Oh and one stance. Theres already too much to worry about.
A master of the basics, is stll a master and I believe that the best tchniques for defense could be placed within one simple kata, if you choose to practice in that fashion.

Humbly,
CZ
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435119 - 04/26/12 12:31 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Chen Zen,

In Chinese forms its usually around 10 years before the student is allowed to enter the realms of Chin Na (Qin Na) whereas when this is effected nothing much is said about this. but because karate is out there for all to see, this is where the discrepancies lie. Japanese Karate does nto have the level of contact as Okinawan Karate (Kode Te) because it was "Watered" down for the Japanese market.

As you know it takes a lifetimes study of karate and kata to truly understand it - "ShuHaRi" I myself have experience of training with Very senior Karateka and their techniques and power on impact is far from soft

Its because the Sports Karate of Ippon Kumite has become popular just like Olympic TKD is nothing like Original TKD

Kyokushin and KNockdown Styles hold the reins to show how hard karate CAN be
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#435120 - 04/26/12 04:46 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Your post nailed right on the head Dobbersky-san.

Mark

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#435121 - 04/26/12 10:49 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Dobbersky]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I agree. Ive seen the differences myself, and Im not a kareteka, but Ive worked with plenty over the years. The okinawans are fighters for sure. Just as you mentiond TKD, while there are still "Hard" schools out there, its a sport more than an art now and I believe that karate and many other TMA are following that path. I think much has been lost over the years in the translation of the art and in the instruction as well. Many schools out there operate soley as a business, looking to find the next lyoto machida, and it is taking away from the school, the art, and the student. Kids cant fight these days, and they certainly dont have style! grin

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#435232 - 05/27/12 11:57 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Chen Zen:

Bowing formally with amusement...

I know little of "tradition", save the tiny one I came from. It was a ~small house~ art. We are all speaking in generics, big brush stereotypes. As others have offered, I too believe there is a meaningful difference between Okinawan arts and their Japanese cousins. I wish I had more exposure, experience to many practices, Neijia, TMA and so forth. But in general I accept your views and perspective...

That said how much contact is required I wonder? As a young man, I would heal regardless. As a married man, with children, the broken nose, the fractured ribs are not necessary for my practice as a daily matter anyway...? If insane/intense is training, how many last, grow or thrive I wonder? How many drop out too injured, too brutalized to function and live in the daily world? I do accept contact is necessary, fundamental to training, but I ask aloud what is "too much"? How much becomes blood letting without value, what becomes neanderthal masturbation, ego 101...

"ME TOUGH..." ok, and... grin


<<It is this contact and "ALIVE" training that defins the practic of MMA.

Pleasant to watch at times, I am not a fan of the CONTEMPT and UNDIGNIFIED behavior most imv display.

<<How do you work in the resistance? Sparring? Drilling? Kumite?

Sparring is an "active method" but has too many pieces to be a clean demonstration, IMHO many times. But in the general sense, sure. By kumite, I will assume you mean the assorted step (1,3,5 step kumite etc.)flavors? That was not too large a piece of our curriculum often. But remember we were not Japanese flavored art... Culturally speaking we had Okinawan martial great grand parents, and american interpretation, grand parents, and american parents martially speaking. That may certainly skew my understanding.

But in the sense of learning a technique 1,3,5 step kumite can be done with resistance, ONCE the mechanics, the basic ideas have been actually learned IMV...

<<When you work the resistance, are you confined to using that particualar technique or movement?

No, but resistance comes in many flavors. Someone resisting a technique because they have something to prove? They do not understand how an idea/technique works? If this is resistance, they are in the way of learning, deliberately.

That being said, if I and a peer "resist" doing a drill we are practicing we are exploring solutions, probing what can and cannot be found buried within it/them.

But yes drills are a reasonable place to explore resistance, IF, if all parties agree, and UNDERSTAND, ok we can resist far more strongly. IMHO, IMHV-fwiw this must be said ALOUD to prevent misunderstanding, ego, or hurting someone without real cause.

<<What are your opponents options or limits?

Stated, said aloud, if we are exploring escapes, their front kick solution is likely problematic, if, if we are trying to explore a technical scenario to ingrain a clean response.

If it is free-flow, "anything goes" that is a different creature, and perfectly reasonable to solve whatever arises.

<<the best tchniques for defense could be placed within one simple kata, if you choose to practice in that fashion.

What did you have in mind ?! Look forward to the youtube vid grin

Humbly,

Jeff

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#435238 - 05/28/12 03:34 AM Re: Food for thought [Re: Ronin1966]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
*Bows Silently*

Hello again Ronin,

Your training and experiences mirror my own, yet are worlds apart. I too spent many years, and my formative years in MA, in a "in house" enviroment. These are some of my fondest memories in training.

Our approach was different, however. The forms were there, but there was more focus on the 1-3-5 step sparring approaches. Often one student would work a certain technique while another found different ways to work around it and so forth but it was very technique focused and resistance focused. And, as you suggested these things were all agreed upon. The resistance was there as a tool to learn the strengths and weaknesses of what we had to work with within our system. Its not about ego but about making sure that a technique will "Hold up under pressure".

These excercises were used to supplement our sparring,and for refining technique and mechanics. The sparring was always the largest focus of training. The thinking is that it is the closest thing to what we train for, thats what should be done. Thats not to say we never did forms,we did. There was simply less focus on it and more shifted onto application against resistance.

I wondered if you were going to catch the one kata comment. Judging by what you describe above, it may be a long form but could you not do it? After purple belt my art required that you create your own kata. As you are an experienced student, then surely you have come across the techniques that you will use from now on?

Perhaps Im alone in this, as I recently brought it up to another MA who said it was folly, but to me, I believe Ive reached the point in my training that Im no longer looking to add to the curriculum. Ive decided what I can and cannot do well and what I am willing to use in a self defense situation and these are the things I train. He says I have unnecessarily limited myself, while I maintain that I have simply streamlined my training and become more focused.Surely some of the more experienced MA out there feel the same way concerning there art?

The kata Idea, I think I could do it other than the grappling techniques. Purely striking wise, it would be simple and not very long. May have to buy a camera for this one...

Humbly,
Cory

p.s. Oh, and while you may say you know little of tradition, you have a traditional attitude. Something lacking from many modern MA., and sorely missed. When MMA streamlined training, they threw ethos out the window, perhaps not universally but on the large, anyways.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435241 - 05/28/12 12:42 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Chen Zen]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Chen..one to three kata is exactly how it worked in the 'old days'.

During the formative years of Karate you can read about the old masters learning, they all spent all their time on refining stuff from one to three kata. I have been lucky enough to get training with some people who trained in this old school way and man..like night and day.

Far as the method it works just like anything else, if you actually understand the principles in the kata, you grab an opponent and you start small and focused, and then you expand and progressively get more "real". From my own perspective, Karate places a premium on simply knowing how to do a couple things well..rather than spending alot of time trying to be "well rounded". Not that being well rounded isn't good advice, I just don't think Karate is meant to be this uber-comprehensive system that addresses every single possibility.

Of course today it's great because you also have access to stuff like body armor, and some methods that the old guys didn't!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/28/12 12:48 PM)

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#435242 - 05/28/12 01:38 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Zach_Zinn]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Hear! Hear!

"Do five you can do well. Understand the rest."

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#435243 - 05/28/12 07:23 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Zach,

That makes more sense to me. The techniques that seem to work best are the basics and can be found in most beginner kata, IMO. Perhaps its personal preference, but I want nothing more from my training to be a master at the basics. To me a simple system means simple techniques. That translates into simpler training. When this occurs, it allows the student more time with each technique, as well as more time for determining application and working on other key aspects like footwork, for example.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#435248 - 05/29/12 12:26 PM Re: Food for thought [Re: iaibear]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: iaibear
Hear! Hear!

"Do five you can do well. Understand the rest."


Excellent post totally agree
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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