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#377437 - 02/15/08 10:23 PM
Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity
[Re: matxtx]
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Member
Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
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I gotta say the guy has a point. You tend to fight like you train and MMA trainning and fighting provides some additonal benefits to most TKD school's trainning. Now you'll probably never see me trainning in an MMA class but that's a personnal choice I'm not too diluted to realized the benefits of that form of trainning. I also believe that it is possible to get there with TKD trainning. It just takes alot longer because there are so many other things to learn and people tend to get distracted by these things. It has also been brought up by some that self defense is not the primary goal of some TKD trainning.
So I beleive there is more than one way to get to this self defense goal and I can't sit here and say which way is the best. I think that depends of on the idividual and the school not the martial art.
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#377438 - 02/15/08 10:25 PM
Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity
[Re: matxtx]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
Quote:
These points stand on their own merit. I only think that it is common sense to see that if a someone trained in this fashion, they will be in a position to better defend themselves than if they did nothing, as this training certainly develops certain skills & abilities.
My point was about the kicking.Its a good tool to learn kicking for olympic type sparring.Not for SD or NHB fighting.
I agree there are other benefits like fitness and evasion skills but im not talking about those.
Its a sport.If WTF olympic people go on to say/teach SD kicking is similar then the they deserve the aggrivation and to be argued with.
If a student never wants to compete its not a good kicking tool for them.Unless they find itfun and enjoyable of course.Just as long as they know.
OK, lets just say a person joins a school that ONLY does WTF Olympic sparring & nothing else. Now don't jump on me, I know schools like this are few & far between. But for arguements sake, lets just ASSUME it is a given. Now that same student prior to joining was only 15% capable of defending themselves, just based on how they were brought up. Now they learn some fancy footwork, with some fast & powerful kicks. Now another given that I will stipulate to is that these kicks were taught for the Olympic style tournaments.
I do not see how you can not concede that their ability to defend themselves has just raised from 15% to say 44%. To me that is so plain & simple. To ignore it or not see it is just not plausable.
Now that same person joins a school that concentrates solely on down & dirty street SD. There ability to defend themselves may rise from 15% to say 66 to 73%. This school has no DoBoks, no bowing, no tenets, no forms, no tournament rules etc. They only work real life SD situations. Now the person joining here would no doubt be better able to defend themselves. But they don't have all the other aspects that a traditional Art or sport can impart.
If that is what you want, cool, go for it. One should find a school that best suits what they seek.
But to say that someone does not improve SD skills in a WTF school is just intelectually missing something. JMHO
MATXTX:
Please respond to this narrow point only. Thanks
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#377439 - 02/15/08 10:37 PM
Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity
[Re: ITFunity]
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Member
Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
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The other thing that I always thought and maybe this is my own dilusion. That a proper Martial Art and a respectable Martial Arts instructor would not only teach you how to defend yourself but also provide you with the wisdom/mercy to guide your use of these skills.
And that takes longer than just learning the fighting skills
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#377440 - 02/16/08 12:17 AM
Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity
[Re: matxtx]
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Member
Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
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Quote:
Quote:
I would really like to know...
Where are all these NHB street fights going on that people on martial arts boards are always going on and on about?
What?
Who is always going about NHB fights happening?
No one has in this thread and I dont see it much except from 
I said SD ,when it gets physical is now a fight.Its a no holds barred fight.A fight to survive.It has now become a fight.A fight where grappling and striking or anything can happen.
If a lion is on a gazelle ,the gazelle is not applying SD.Its fighting back for its life.
Its a fight now where anything goes.An NHB fight.
So how do you train against that?
Do NHB type drills and spars and training.
The points you then go onto make about what SD is are not pyhsical.If you read my thread I said that.SD is basicaly soft skills like awarenes,not being an idiot,not getting in situations.The moment it goes pyhsical its now a fight.
Plus you dont know how good they are untill that moment.So it makes sense to train against the best you can and other skilled NHB people.
And Von, you say your ignorant to MMA yourself.So you dont know whats going in an MMA gym to even comment about if or if not it can be applied to SD.
In your posts, I read several instances where you appeared to be making a distinction between SD and NHB. Specifically, because you used the wording "SD or NHB". So it appeared to me that you were talking about SD scenarios and NHB scenarios. As I pointed out in my post, I think the aims of self-defense are different from a NHB street fight. The aim of SD (in my mind) should be to survive and escape. From my observation, the aim of street fights is to win.
I've been reading a few online martial arts forums for a while, and I see this discussion come up time and again. The old "but would this work in a street fight" debate. The funny thing about these discussions is that I always want to ask "What in the world are you people doing getting in street fights for?" I understand training to defend yourself, but as I mentioned, I see that as different from a street fight per se.
The reality is that unless you're a thug who goes out looking for trouble, the likelihood of most of us getting in a real street fight is not that high. People who engange in these tired discussions about street fights seem to forget that there are other reasons for training that are just as valid.
I think Olympic TKD is a fun sport that keeps me great shape. Would I use it for SD? Heck no. I think wushu forms require incredible artistry and athleticism, and I appreciate that. Do I think it prepares anyone for dealing with a mugger. No. I like watching MMA and watching good, technical grappling work. Does MMA help you dodge bullets? No. But there are other valid reasons for training in these arts. Why can't we just enjoy martial arts for what they have to offer and stop worrying about acting like thugs?
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#377441 - 02/16/08 07:15 AM
Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity
[Re: ITFunity]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
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I am not saying someone does not improve pyhsical skills, doing WTF training that could help in a SD situation.Even if its slightly.
I was saying I dont agree Olympic type sparring is a good kicking tool overall.Its a good kicking tool for olympic sparring.
And that people who teach or say it can be applied to kicking in an NHB/SD situation deserve to be argued against and get hassle.
Hence the reason WTF people get a raw deal.
If they say its fun and they enjoy it.No problem
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.
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#377442 - 02/16/08 07:39 AM
Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity
[Re: badachagi]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
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Quote:
In your posts, I read several instances where you appeared to be making a distinction between SD and NHB. Specifically, because you used the wording "SD or NHB". So it appeared to me that you were talking about SD scenarios and NHB scenarios. As I pointed out in my post, I think the aims of self-defense are different from a NHB street fight. The aim of SD (in my mind) should be to survive and escape. From my observation, the aim of street fights is to win.
I've been reading a few online martial arts forums for a while, and I see this discussion come up time and again. The old "but would this work in a street fight" debate. The funny thing about these discussions is that I always want to ask "What in the world are you people doing getting in street fights for?" I understand training to defend yourself, but as I mentioned, I see that as different from a street fight per se.
The reality is that unless you're a thug who goes out looking for trouble, the likelihood of most of us getting in a real street fight is not that high. People who engange in these tired discussions about street fights seem to forget that there are other reasons for training that are just as valid.
I think Olympic TKD is a fun sport that keeps me great shape. Would I use it for SD? Heck no. I think wushu forms require incredible artistry and athleticism, and I appreciate that. Do I think it prepares anyone for dealing with a mugger. No. I like watching MMA and watching good, technical grappling work. Does MMA help you dodge bullets? No. But there are other valid reasons for training in these arts. Why can't we just enjoy martial arts for what they have to offer and stop worrying about acting like thugs?
Well,like I said, a SD sitution once its pyhsical is now an NHB fight to survive.How hard is that to not understand.
How does an arm coming at you differ if its SD or fight?
The difference is in your head,like iv been saying and like youv been saying over and over.I dont know if you see that though.
What you do and how you behave and how it started and how you feel is not pyhsical.The changes take place upstairs in your bonce.Your head.
This is a forum to discuss these things though and this is the subject its about.WTF olympic sparring as a kicking tool then how NHB/MMA drills sparring can be applied to being assaulted or attacked.
How can you tell if I or anyone gets into street fights though or if I am a thug?You cant.
If you want to talk about the fun side of what you get then discuss it in a topic.Thats cool.I get fun too from training.
But so what if someone is getting into fights.I hate that attitute.Holya than thouh.(Cant spell).
All the top SD people out there are/were fighters at one time who know violence and have been around violence.They were those ''thugs''.Its better to learn from these people.Learn from the ones that can be as violent,if not more so,than the person who might assault you.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.
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#377443 - 02/16/08 09:28 AM
Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity
[Re: matxtx]
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Member
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
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matxtx, badachagi, flynch, ITFUNITY, trevek
All very good perspectives and good discussion. Matxtx I still disagree with you regarding WTF sparing as a good kicking tool and here is why, hopefully I will be more clear and sound less confrontational in this explanation.
As you progress and work on the kicks for competing your kicks will obviously improve and no one should argue with that. Now combine the improved kicking with all the other acquired skills, SD, hands,ground, etc. and all the repetitive full contact competition one will have also learned to handle them selves under stress.
Now as far as your comments regarding the kicking in WTF as being good only for competition you are some what correct and most every WTF competitor knows this, however what we are left with is a tool chess of well trained kicks to choose from if an opportunity is presented and from all the practice you become quite good at identifying these opportunities.
Where most of the conflict regarding WTF people is concerned is that too many people do not understand that competition is not all we train for. We train like any one else does, some schools more thorough than others but most all schools train for SD. Again I say too many people do not understand this. WTF schools are judged by what people see in the Olympics and even most WTF participants are disappointed when we watch the Olympics. What I am trying to say is that WTF participating schools are just as complete or incomplete at SD as any other Tae kwon do organization. Your assumption that a competitor only trains to compete is wrong we also train to fight and more importantly to defend like anyone else does and we fight like we train. Competition is a very small part of our training. Many people never or seldom even do the competitions.
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#377444 - 02/16/08 10:40 AM
Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity
[Re: von1]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
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No problem.
We just disagree thats all.
I think its a crazy way to do it and I dont think you have faced a grappler and tried to spar the same way or you would in a WTF olympic spar or you would see how vunerable you are.
Are you talking theory or actual experience,because my background is TKD and I train in NHB/MMA and im bringing it over and dont find what you say as true.
Your tool chess of kicks is less usefull as you are not positioned tacticaly,stance wise or using suitable footwork to deal with a different situation other than another WTF kicker and you wont notice these oppurtunitys if you dont face them.
So I just think your better in the first place to address a person who can strike and grapple.
Yea,its better than nothing.I know that and have not said any different.
I am not discussing WTF as a whole or what else it trains.I know all schools different and do other things.
Im just addressing whether WTF olympic sparring is a good kicking tool .
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.
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#377445 - 02/16/08 10:47 AM
Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity
[Re: matxtx]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
I am not saying someone does not improve pyhsical skills, doing WTF training that could help in a SD situation.Even if its slightly.
Good, as I was getting the impression that you were. Thanks for clearing that point up.
Good, as I was getting the
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