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#434327 - 12/20/11 10:32 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Ives]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Originally Posted By: Ives

The guard in karate is lower than a boxing guard which has a purpose. In boxing you are rulebound not to use any kicks or grabbing. In karate all is allowed (unless you compete or train with certain safety measures). This means the maai will be larger because the reach of you and your opponent is longer because of kicks.


I understand that. On the other side of the coin, a common attack (according to crime stats for unarmed assaults in places like the UK at least) relate to a person getting punched, usually in the head. Is it better to spend a lot of time learning to protect the head from strikes or to learn how to cover the whole body (which may mean less time is spent learning to protect the head). I suppose that is individual preference.

Regarding Fight "Science", it was hardly objective. They had a heavyweight boxer and rated him agains a TKD (or Karate) guy of middleweight build, and a Kung Fu guy of lightweight build. It wasn't very scientific.
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#434328 - 12/20/11 01:27 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
I too have seen data that show the most common attack is a punch to the head (most times the left side since the majority of people are righthanded).
From the karate guard however you can block (age-uke or shajo-uke) quite fast.
But, when attacked you will hardly have your guard up, in either karate-guard or a boxing guard, becasue most attacks outside the ring/shiaijo are surprise attacks or overly telegraphed attacks.
Getting into a guard when confronted can have different results; telling you are ready for action, telling you have some understanding of MA, taking away your surprise counter, etc.

Guarding the head is a good idea. But intercepting/blocking a kick to the stomach is going to be harder from the high boxing guard.

To be clear: we're talking application / kumite here. You see that the hikite position, as used in kihon, isn't to be used in these situations.
If anyone thinks that a karate-punch means: one arm out to make contact, other arm held at the side of the body at waist level; then they have missed some steps in training towards kumite. (In my opinion that is.) The only reason why we do that in karate is for the purpose of creation of technique. An that is because 'choku-zuki' isn't a natural motion to the human body. It is a learnt motion both on a physical as a cognitive level.
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#434334 - 12/23/11 07:05 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
People punch that way precisely because they fail to ask, "why?" Traditional martial arts instruction does not encourage critical thinking.


Yep. For years in TKD I was taught the two foreknuckle punch was the only way... then a bit of boxing, and later wing chun, showed me other ways...
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#434351 - 12/29/11 01:11 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: trevek]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
The two foreknuckle punch is anatomically incorrect anyway...

I just have one question based on some of the earlier discussion on punching and kihon I picked these questions based on Ives posts.

If Kihon is supposed to be the perfection of technique and also by popular theory a place from where to start creating muscle memory why differ some critical aspects so greatly?

And again why the ''gap in kihon and kumite'' if you have someone do Kihon for 6-12 maybe even more months without any sparring and all that time he is keeping his guard low, core ''soft'', heels on the ground or whatever else travesties and then suddenly he starts doing Kumite and hears that this was a ''gap'' then what the hell was the point of it all?

If Kihon is training to reach a ''perfect technique'' (something we will never reach as such a thing would go against the essence of Martial Arts and well common sense) then how can there be any gap in practical fundementals in Kihon and Kumite?

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#434353 - 12/29/11 06:44 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
The two foreknuckle punch is anatomically incorrect anyway...




Huh? What does that mean?

Duane

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#434354 - 12/29/11 06:50 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Matakiant

If Kihon is training to reach a ''perfect technique'' (something we will never reach as such a thing would go against the essence of Martial Arts and well common sense) then how can there be any gap in practical fundementals in Kihon and Kumite?



Funny, I was always taught that one of the goals of the martial arts was the pursuit of perfection...must have been another "gap" in my training.

Duane

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#434355 - 12/29/11 07:06 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: duanew
Originally Posted By: Matakiant

If Kihon is training to reach a ''perfect technique'' (something we will never reach as such a thing would go against the essence of Martial Arts and well common sense) then how can there be any gap in practical fundementals in Kihon and Kumite?



Funny, I was always taught that one of the goals of the martial arts was the pursuit of perfection...must have been another "gap" in my training.

Duane


The pursuit is perfection but achieving it would go against the essence of martial arts.

To keep pursuing perfection means to keep learning.

Achieving ''perfection'' would mean there is nothing else to learn.

The foreknuckle comment my bad habbit of generalisation. It is fine as long as the bones align with the wrist.. But I have seen a lot of schools teach and practice so the wrist turns to ''bring out the knuckles'' which is a load of crap.. I personally don't form a ''fist'' before impact most of the time and when I do form a fist I prefer the Isshin Ryu fist the most.

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#434357 - 12/29/11 07:20 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
The two foreknuckle punch is anatomically incorrect anyway...

I am curious for your reasoning. I believe it is the anatomically correct way because it is the most unforced alignment of the wrist hand and arm bones.
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
I just have one question based on some of the earlier discussion on punching and kihon I picked these questions based on Ives posts.

If Kihon is supposed to be the perfection of technique and also by popular theory a place from where to start creating muscle memory why differ some critical aspects so greatly?

Please elaborate on "some" critical aspects.
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
And again why the ''gap in kihon and kumite'' if you have someone do Kihon for 6-12 maybe even more months without any sparring and all that time he is keeping his guard low, core ''soft'', heels on the ground or whatever else travesties and then suddenly he starts doing Kumite and hears that this was a ''gap'' then what the hell was the point of it all?

That's exactly one of the reasons people start asking these questions about punching methods.
The method of punching in karate (primarily the straight punch) - and maybe also the method of kicking (front kick) - is an unnatural movement to the human body and mind. That's why you create these techniques first on the level of cognition. Here the route and the logic behind it come in to play.
Training Kihon develope techniques that are relatively independent of other body parts, or stance. A preferred kamae in kumite comes to mind.
The use of a guard in kihon training isn't necessary because it serves a different purpose.
Originally Posted By: Matakiant

If Kihon is training to reach a ''perfect technique'' (something we will never reach as such a thing would go against the essence of Martial Arts and well common sense) then how can there be any gap in practical fundementals in Kihon and Kumite?

I speak of an ideal technique for the purpose of creation. Perfect techniques aren't defined. What is neaded is an efficient technique, that is essential to karate in my opinion.
The reason why there is a gap between practical fundamentals in kihon in realtion to kumite is actually quite simple. Kumite is dynamic because all opponents are given the options of initiative for action or reaction. Kihon is essentially an individual excercise.

That's why yakusoku-kumite and it's levels of learning for different purposes, maai, chakugan, unsoku etc. is necessary.

Back to the guard; there isn't any reason for that in karate, since you have to be able to launch an attack or recieve from any position and most importantly the reasons mentioned.
Most of the times in a budo situation* there is no time for it. Next to that is telegraphs intentions, thus possibly taking away initiative.

*(By a budo situation I mean one of a life or death encounter.)
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#434359 - 12/29/11 07:45 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 907
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I always "Punch" like a "Boxer" when fighting, I always adopt a "boxer's stance too" (although my hands are open palms facing outwards no agressively). The only time the "Karate strike" comes into play is when I actually have a grip on my opponnent.

Regards to strikes to the stomach, I'm not Daniel-san (who dropped to the ground everytime he got hit in the stomach) I have spent years conditioning my stomach etc so I don't "feel" it as much as many others. Either way is that not what Sabaki or Mikuri is for.

When fighting your assailant will not punch with 1 hand and leave it out for you to do so many "defensive" techniques whilst the other hand is by their waist. No they will send in a barage of strikes to your head. If your back hand is by your waist, how will it stop a strike to the head without bring it up to block?

Note before Marquess of Queensberry rules "Boxing" was an all-round Striking AND Grappling system.
In general, boxers are prohibited from hitting below the belt, holding, tripping, pushing, biting, or spitting. They also are prohibited from kicking, head-butting, or hitting with any part of the arm other than the knuckles of a closed fist (including hitting with the elbow, shoulder or forearm, as well as with open gloves, the wrist, the inside, back or side of the hand). They are prohibited as well from hitting the back, back of the neck or head (called a "rabbit-punch") or the kidneys. They are prohibited from holding the ropes for support when punching, holding an opponent while punching, or ducking below the belt of their opponent (dropping below the waist of your opponent, no matter the distance between).
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434363 - 12/29/11 05:20 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Talking of boxing, if you look at old photos of bare-knuckle boxers they often have their fists vertical, like a wing-chun style fist rather than the modern boxers, who generally train to punch with gloves on.
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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