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#434238 - 11/28/11 08:46 AM Punching Methods - Why?
Dobbersky Offline
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Registered: 03/13/06
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Punching Methods - Why?

All

I have used the Phrase "Karate Punching" but this goes along with any style that give a "Punch from the Hip"

I would love to know why doe we practice "Karate Punching" when we go into Kumite (Sparring or Fighting) (especially when practicing Knock Down Karate and K-1 etc), do we not punch like this. I find it a waste of time learning to "punch" like this then when you have to punch you all instinctively punch like a Boxer!

Karate Punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjwxff6c7sM

Boxer Punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDZumdvlGxU

I can only see lack of protection for the Head, punching like this

What are your opinions. Which do you teach/practice and why?
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#434239 - 11/28/11 10:23 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
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Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
The hand on the hip replicates the pulling hand. Pulling their arm, leg, shoulder to allow you to move behind/beside them. This does a number of things:
1. By pulling them into the punch you add power to the strike.
2. You move the opponent off balance and off line limiting their ability to counter.
3. You move to a position of COMBAT not CONTEST-like a boxing match or most sport karate matches. These techniques are illegal in boxing and most styles of sport karate but work very well in the real world where fights are for defense not trophies.
Instinctive means it is hardwired into the brain-it's in the DNA. Boxers must train to punch the way they punch so it is not instinctive.Neither is karate which is why we train.

Duane

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#434240 - 11/28/11 12:02 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
"You move to a position of COMBAT not CONTEST-like a boxing match or most sport karate matches." These techniques are illegal in boxing and most styles of sport karate." I agree.

One must redirect ones opponents strikes...(JU)and the counter with strong strikes of your own... (GO). One would hope that the exchange would be decisivly short. The whole concept of punching boxing style is sport oriented.This isn't to run down boxing, because their footwork and striking are terrific. It's just that the whole stand there and trade punches isn't Karate as I know it.



Mark

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#434243 - 11/28/11 03:13 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
To be fair to boxing, it is supposed to be the art of hitting without getting hit. There are a lot of boxers I've sparred with who are hard to hit (in the head!!).

Not to say their aren't boxers who don't stand and trade, but that isn't limited to boxing. I've seen it in styles like Kyokushin Karate, that seem to resort to standing and trading as a primary tactic. Great if you are big/strong/athletic person, but not so good it you aren't.


As to the other points:

Originally Posted By: duanew
The hand on the hip replicates the pulling hand. Pulling their arm, leg, shoulder to allow you to move behind/beside them. This does a number of things:
1. By pulling them into the punch you add power to the strike.
2. You move the opponent off balance and off line limiting their ability to counter.
3. You move to a position of COMBAT not CONTEST-like a boxing match or most sport karate matches. These techniques are illegal in boxing and most styles of sport karate but work very well in the real world where fights are for defense not trophies.
Instinctive means it is hardwired into the brain-it's in the DNA. Boxers must train to punch the way they punch so it is not instinctive.Neither is karate which is why we train.

Duane


I get the theory Duane, but as Dobbersky mentioned, the traditional karate method does leave you exposed to getting punched in the head. A Wado Ryu instructor said traditional karate punching drills were done as a conditioning tool, rather than a practical punching method. I am aware that not everyone in Karate would agree with this!!

As to the original post:

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Punching Methods - Why?

All

I have used the Phrase "Karate Punching" but this goes along with any style that give a "Punch from the Hip"

I would love to know why doe we practice "Karate Punching" when we go into Kumite (Sparring or Fighting) (especially when practicing Knock Down Karate and K-1 etc), do we not punch like this. I find it a waste of time learning to "punch" like this then when you have to punch you all instinctively punch like a Boxer!

What are your opinions. Which do you teach/practice and why?



I'm not a karate-ka, I've only ever had a handful of Karate classes. One thing I would say is that I've heard it lamented before that many styles of Karate (and TKD) practice things in their non-sparring training that they can't include in sparring for different reasons, hence people wondered why they were doing them.

I suppose that is why there are so many karate styles and orginisations around today. People have disagreements as to how important something is or what purpose it holds in a system.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434244 - 11/28/11 04:22 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Freeze the basic Karate punch method head level while one hand is going out, and one is coming back, that is the 'cover' of the centerline, it looks somewhat like and old time boxers stance. Of course if you look at the hikite drill at it's end points it doesn't make sense. There are a bunch of reasons for practicing like this, i don't really want to put them all out there personally...

So I will put it like this:

If you think it's useless, and would rather punch like a boxer, then just punch like a boxer.

Certainly we all know boxing punches work great, and if you truly think the Karate method is advocating leaving oneself open to getting punched in the head..then all by all means abandon it...if I thought that was what was intended, I would not do it personally.

I think the old school guys (and BTW this method of punching extends outside of Karate, the chamber punching is a staple of a bunch of different TMA) knew what they were doing, and knew getting hit in the head was bad. That leads on to the conclusion that if you are looking at this kind of drill and getting that result..perhaps you are looking at it's purpose incorrectly.

Not everything is meant to be used as it literally appears, you don't look at a boxer hitting a speedbag and say "hey, that guy would neve hit like that"..well there are things like that in Karate too, the purpose is not to generate an exact replica of a dynamic technique.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (11/28/11 04:26 PM)

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#434245 - 11/28/11 04:33 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri

Nice post Prizewriter.There are many organizations of Karate.I sometimes need to be reminded of that fact and that an open mind is needed to grow in the arts.Coming out of a sport oriented MA (ITF TKD) and switching to a traditional art(Okinawan Goju ryu)sometimes messes with my perspective of the arts.On one side of the coin techniques were there to score points. Now training is geared to ending a conflict in as few techniques as possible.
Just for the record we do some drills in class utilizing the boxing guard and some of the punching found in that art.I'm particularly fond of using the drop step/right hook. I've found that that technique blends well with concept of getting off the line and closing the gap to your opponent.

Mark

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#434246 - 11/28/11 06:01 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I had heard that the 'karate' method may have grown out of the principal of grabbing an opponent and pulling them with the reaction (pull back) hand, whilst either hitting them as you pull them forward onto your fist, or pushing/throwing them with the forward moving (punch) hand.

Having studied a little Wing Chun, I learned the possibility of this also being used in KF.
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#434247 - 11/28/11 06:22 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter

I get the theory Duane, but as Dobbersky mentioned, the traditional karate method does leave you exposed to getting punched in the head. A Wado Ryu instructor said traditional karate punching drills were done as a conditioning tool, rather than a practical punching method. I am aware that not everyone in Karate would agree with this!!



If I grab your left arm with my left hand, pull you sideways, step behind you and hit you....not sure how my head is "open". The hand is on the chamber during kata and kihon to teach the "HIKITE" pulling hand. Anyone who walks into a fight with a hand on their hip doesn't understand their karate.


Duane

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#434248 - 11/29/11 02:59 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I concur with Duane..the idea that punching from chamber when drilling punches is a suggestion to not defend your head is a ridiculous one. I'm not sure where this came from, I suspect either people not understanding the function of their own kihon training, or just people with no real Karate training making guesses.

Far as 'being for conditioning'..that is something i'll bet you'd hear from plenty of orthodox Japanese Karate schools.

Don't mean to disparage Japanese Karate too hard, but if you are looking at mainstream Japanese Karate (minus a few free thinkers) to figure out what drills are for..you ain't gonna get far.

The "3 k" approach in much Japanese Karate kind of relegates kata, kihon, and in some cases pretty much everything other than sport kumite to mere aesthetics...not the people to ask about function of movements, it isn't a part of their mindset much of the time.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (11/29/11 03:00 AM)

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#434249 - 11/29/11 04:14 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Well I would concede I am a Karate Ignoramus, though I have a lot of respect for Karate. This has been an enlightening discussion. From my own point of view I still wouldn't be comfortable punching like the first method Dobbersky mentioned. Making sure I grab someone and turn them before they've had a chance to punch me would be a big if for me lol!! That's more to do with my own lack of reflex though!
_________________________
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