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#434265 - 11/30/11 10:37 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: MattJ]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: MattJ


Duane makes a fair point about chamber being used for pulling, but how many schools allow grabbing in sparring? Not many that I have seen.

There is a correlation here.


The difference between karate-do-karate designed to build character and better citizens through sport training and karate-jitsu-karate designed to win a real fight.
There are some Okinawan karate teachers who are considering changing the name of what they do from karate to toude. This would be done to differentiate between do and jitsu. The new way and the old way.

Duane

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#434266 - 11/30/11 11:05 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: iaibear]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 892
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All,

Excellent and dare I say awesome posts by everyone with regards to this topic!!!

May I add that in the various "Sabaki" Competitions from Ashihara and Enshin and Daiko Juku Grabing IS allowed as part of the genre of "legal" techniques

May I add that "karate punching" is dare i say not punching at all but a practice of Kyoushi



Take the basic Grab/Stance in Judo,

Left Hand on the opponent's Right Shoulder/Lapel, Right Hand grasping the underneath of the opponent's Left Elbow - very similar to the position of the basic Karate front stance!!!

Now with the Punch, the Hikite, you get the push/pull action, whilst twisting the opponent's shoulder to one side creating him/her to be off-balance. This in succession can become a basic throw!!!

This is how I teach the Karate Punching aswell as the Grab and punch as discussed above

Again thank you all
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434283 - 12/06/11 12:24 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
People punch that way precisely because they fail to ask, "why?" Traditional martial arts instruction does not encourage critical thinking. The idea is that the art was perfected at some point in the past, and the task today is to preserve the sacred tradition. People just assume that because those silly movements are in the art, they must have a practical purpose. They don't.

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#434285 - 12/06/11 09:36 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 892
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
People punch that way precisely because they fail to ask, "why?" Traditional martial arts instruction does not encourage critical thinking. The idea is that the art was perfected at some point in the past, and the task today is to preserve the sacred tradition. People just assume that because those silly movements are in the art, they must have a practical purpose. They don't.


Need I say any more!!!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#434286 - 12/06/11 11:09 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Has anybody considered the different levels of developement?
-The level of creation. To learn the form of a technique. (The ideal form for learning purposes in a training envoronment. )
-The level of application. (Allows for deformation of form to (counter-)attack at a certain time in conflict.)
These different levels of developement have different purposes. These are also to outer edges of the scale which leads form developing towards applying.
Sparring is limited in regards to these levels. (Kihon-kumite comes close to the first level, but has already different purposes. Sparring limits the level of application because it is rule-bound. EDIT: Karate isn't rule-bound!!)
Your job as a karateka (MAist) it is to be aware of these limitations and try to work within or around them. Be creative and be critical.


Edited by Ives (12/06/11 11:10 AM)
Edit Reason: Addition
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Ives

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#434287 - 12/06/11 11:59 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Ives]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 223
Loc: Missouri


Great point! Karate as a form of SD isn't bound by rules.It's only bound by our own level of restraint.Here is the part where we decide how much force we can use in defense of us or others.Punching or other strikes are to be used with the goal of stopping the threat, not scoring points.This of course is the traditional view on the subject.I realize that competition is fun and challenging. It just is a different way of doing karate.There is room for everyone to have there version of karate. We should respect that .


Mark

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#434288 - 12/06/11 01:46 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Competition is only a small part of my karate. Most of the times I use it to test some of my techniques. Scoring points could be a side-effect.

And for the record when sparring I tend to use my karate punches (choku-zuki) not from hikite-position but from my guard (lower than your average boxing guard).
_________________________
Ives

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#434289 - 12/07/11 01:38 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Ives]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I think you hit the nail on the head Ives, people see kihon and they think it's a direct replication of how you use technique, it's not, it's a staged way of teaching, and testing certain habits.

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#434290 - 12/07/11 04:14 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn
...it's a staged way of teaching, and testing certain habits.

I'ld like to add: programming and polishing (somewhere between teaching and testing) and mechanics and principles at the end.

Do you see it's close relation to kata?
_________________________
Ives

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#434291 - 12/07/11 07:26 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
All,

May I add that "karate punching" is dare i say not punching at all but a practice of Kyoushi


Excuse my ignorance, what is Kyoushi? I know Kyusho and tuite. Considering all the time the Okinawans spend on hitting the makiwara with the "karate punch" I think it is safe to say that it is a punch-at least some of the time.

Duane

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