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#434250 - 11/29/11 06:54 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 121
First of all why do you consider ''punching from the hip'' to be all there is to a ''karate punch''?

Most people are doing this rigid kumite style hip punching without knowing or understanding any real implications behind it - they believe and think that pucnhing like that is an ''absolute'' or a ''final form''

While I think it is just a way, when starting to learn, to practice using your hips & legs it's an exaggeration in order to start learning the basics of what I consider a ''karate punch'' to be - the body mechanics as a whole.

The whole ''the chambering hand is really meant to pull/block/intiate some form of grapple'' is certainly feasible but to just practice this way with that in mind is ridiculous - it's one option one very viable option that should be practiced but I still choose to practice most of my punching from a very ''not karate like'' guard as I've been told.

Frankly that doesn't phase me - a technique is made of the body mechanic. Not chambering to the hip does not mean you aren't practicing karate or punching ''like a boxer not a karateka''.

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#434251 - 11/29/11 07:23 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hmmm. There are a lot of folk here that decry how the karate masses "don't know" what they are doing or have "no understanding" about hip chambers, but I ask.....why is that?

Duane makes a fair point about chamber being used for pulling, but how many schools allow grabbing in sparring? Not many that I have seen.

There is a correlation here.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#434252 - 11/29/11 08:00 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: MattJ]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Interesting, Matt. That seems to be the issue Dobbersky referred to: Karate schools who use this traditional method of training but never employ it in a practical way in Kihon/Kumite.

I suppose if you can't use it in sparring or in any practical application, as Zach mentioned, your training time may be better spent doing something else.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434253 - 11/29/11 11:50 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Well I would concede I am a Karate Ignoramus, though I have a lot of respect for Karate. This has been an enlightening discussion. From my own point of view I still wouldn't be comfortable punching like the first method Dobbersky mentioned. Making sure I grab someone and turn them before they've had a chance to punch me would be a big if for me lol!! That's more to do with my own lack of reflex though!

Grabbing and punching are central to our style of Karate. The point being that once you come in contact you don't let go. This "stickiness" is important.I have been taught that once you engage an opponent "stick to them."It isn't a easy concept for me coming out of a tournement background.
The point is that with practice the grab and counter should be virtually at the same time.I'm old and slowing down, but I strive to make the grab and counter strike as seamless as I can make it.

Mark

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#434255 - 11/29/11 02:18 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
To those folks who train it as a movement with practical application (e.g. the grab and punch) is it more of a pre-emptive movement? Or would you consider it viable once the fight was well under way?

Just curious as I find it an interesting subject.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#434256 - 11/29/11 03:47 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Works for me either way.
Duane
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#434257 - 11/29/11 05:38 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: MattJ]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Hmmm. There are a lot of folk here that decry how the karate masses "don't know" what they are doing or have "no understanding" about hip chambers, but I ask.....why is that?

Duane makes a fair point about chamber being used for pulling, but how many schools allow grabbing in sparring? Not many that I have seen.

There is a correlation here.

MattJ- most wouldn't consider our Goju class workout as sparring.There's a one one one between opponents, but the working on combinations,and throws are a means to an end. Our goal is to end the conflict in as few techniques as possible.

mark

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#434260 - 11/29/11 07:23 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Matt, that's a good point, and that really goes to the heart of it.

The truth is that much modern Karate is centered around the "3 k" approach I was talking about, in that kind of setup there is very little training of anything for 'sparring'...or any live practice really outside of standard point style kumite.

There are guys out there who get this stuff, they just aren't from the 'orthodox' camp..though I suspect they are every bit as traditional as a JKA guys, if not more.

Even oldschool boxing used something closer to a fence concept than the modern high and tight guard, so I wouldn't expect to see 'guards' anywhere in TMA outside of competitive pugilism.

As to why practice punching from the chamber, it's one way to see whether or not people are popping up their shoulders prior to their punch creating a tell, and whether or not they are immediately replacing one punch with another, there is more to it than this stuff, but these things matter.

I don't consider punching this way to be a direct attempt at replicating a dynamic situation exactly..it's a way of reinforcing and checking for specific body mechanics like not flaring out your elbows, using the right muscles, learning to put two punches into "one beat".

I know this sounds foreign to people who come from a boxing PoV, where the shoulders are often held up, and the center is shifted to the lead foot..but it is a big deal in many traditional arts, and IMO it has it's merits.




Edited by Zach_Zinn (11/29/11 07:49 PM)

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#434262 - 11/30/11 12:58 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
This late at night I would like to offer a foreign viewpoint. In Aikido the act of "chambering" would be a way of insuring that when you delivered your act, your whole body would be behind it, not just your arm.

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#434264 - 11/30/11 10:31 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
However most effective when done at the beginning of the fight to end it quickly.

Duane

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