FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 45 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn, Ron_Cooley, businns
22902 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 11
trevek 6
cxt 6
JKogas 5
TaekwonDoFan 2
July
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Iaido movements speed
by TooNice
04/14/14 01:47 PM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
Recent Posts
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by cxt
Today at 01:18 PM
centerline concepts
by Dobbersky
07/18/14 06:14 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:38 AM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Forget all that health stuff
by TaekwonDoFan
06/29/14 03:18 AM
Forum Stats
22902 Members
36 Forums
35563 Topics
432448 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#434238 - 11/28/11 08:46 AM Punching Methods - Why?
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 904
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Punching Methods - Why?

All

I have used the Phrase "Karate Punching" but this goes along with any style that give a "Punch from the Hip"

I would love to know why doe we practice "Karate Punching" when we go into Kumite (Sparring or Fighting) (especially when practicing Knock Down Karate and K-1 etc), do we not punch like this. I find it a waste of time learning to "punch" like this then when you have to punch you all instinctively punch like a Boxer!

Karate Punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjwxff6c7sM

Boxer Punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDZumdvlGxU

I can only see lack of protection for the Head, punching like this

What are your opinions. Which do you teach/practice and why?
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#434239 - 11/28/11 10:23 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
The hand on the hip replicates the pulling hand. Pulling their arm, leg, shoulder to allow you to move behind/beside them. This does a number of things:
1. By pulling them into the punch you add power to the strike.
2. You move the opponent off balance and off line limiting their ability to counter.
3. You move to a position of COMBAT not CONTEST-like a boxing match or most sport karate matches. These techniques are illegal in boxing and most styles of sport karate but work very well in the real world where fights are for defense not trophies.
Instinctive means it is hardwired into the brain-it's in the DNA. Boxers must train to punch the way they punch so it is not instinctive.Neither is karate which is why we train.

Duane

Top
#434240 - 11/28/11 12:02 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
"You move to a position of COMBAT not CONTEST-like a boxing match or most sport karate matches." These techniques are illegal in boxing and most styles of sport karate." I agree.

One must redirect ones opponents strikes...(JU)and the counter with strong strikes of your own... (GO). One would hope that the exchange would be decisivly short. The whole concept of punching boxing style is sport oriented.This isn't to run down boxing, because their footwork and striking are terrific. It's just that the whole stand there and trade punches isn't Karate as I know it.



Mark

Top
#434243 - 11/28/11 03:13 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
To be fair to boxing, it is supposed to be the art of hitting without getting hit. There are a lot of boxers I've sparred with who are hard to hit (in the head!!).

Not to say their aren't boxers who don't stand and trade, but that isn't limited to boxing. I've seen it in styles like Kyokushin Karate, that seem to resort to standing and trading as a primary tactic. Great if you are big/strong/athletic person, but not so good it you aren't.


As to the other points:

Originally Posted By: duanew
The hand on the hip replicates the pulling hand. Pulling their arm, leg, shoulder to allow you to move behind/beside them. This does a number of things:
1. By pulling them into the punch you add power to the strike.
2. You move the opponent off balance and off line limiting their ability to counter.
3. You move to a position of COMBAT not CONTEST-like a boxing match or most sport karate matches. These techniques are illegal in boxing and most styles of sport karate but work very well in the real world where fights are for defense not trophies.
Instinctive means it is hardwired into the brain-it's in the DNA. Boxers must train to punch the way they punch so it is not instinctive.Neither is karate which is why we train.

Duane


I get the theory Duane, but as Dobbersky mentioned, the traditional karate method does leave you exposed to getting punched in the head. A Wado Ryu instructor said traditional karate punching drills were done as a conditioning tool, rather than a practical punching method. I am aware that not everyone in Karate would agree with this!!

As to the original post:

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Punching Methods - Why?

All

I have used the Phrase "Karate Punching" but this goes along with any style that give a "Punch from the Hip"

I would love to know why doe we practice "Karate Punching" when we go into Kumite (Sparring or Fighting) (especially when practicing Knock Down Karate and K-1 etc), do we not punch like this. I find it a waste of time learning to "punch" like this then when you have to punch you all instinctively punch like a Boxer!

What are your opinions. Which do you teach/practice and why?



I'm not a karate-ka, I've only ever had a handful of Karate classes. One thing I would say is that I've heard it lamented before that many styles of Karate (and TKD) practice things in their non-sparring training that they can't include in sparring for different reasons, hence people wondered why they were doing them.

I suppose that is why there are so many karate styles and orginisations around today. People have disagreements as to how important something is or what purpose it holds in a system.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#434244 - 11/28/11 04:22 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Freeze the basic Karate punch method head level while one hand is going out, and one is coming back, that is the 'cover' of the centerline, it looks somewhat like and old time boxers stance. Of course if you look at the hikite drill at it's end points it doesn't make sense. There are a bunch of reasons for practicing like this, i don't really want to put them all out there personally...

So I will put it like this:

If you think it's useless, and would rather punch like a boxer, then just punch like a boxer.

Certainly we all know boxing punches work great, and if you truly think the Karate method is advocating leaving oneself open to getting punched in the head..then all by all means abandon it...if I thought that was what was intended, I would not do it personally.

I think the old school guys (and BTW this method of punching extends outside of Karate, the chamber punching is a staple of a bunch of different TMA) knew what they were doing, and knew getting hit in the head was bad. That leads on to the conclusion that if you are looking at this kind of drill and getting that result..perhaps you are looking at it's purpose incorrectly.

Not everything is meant to be used as it literally appears, you don't look at a boxer hitting a speedbag and say "hey, that guy would neve hit like that"..well there are things like that in Karate too, the purpose is not to generate an exact replica of a dynamic technique.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (11/28/11 04:26 PM)

Top
#434245 - 11/28/11 04:33 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri

Nice post Prizewriter.There are many organizations of Karate.I sometimes need to be reminded of that fact and that an open mind is needed to grow in the arts.Coming out of a sport oriented MA (ITF TKD) and switching to a traditional art(Okinawan Goju ryu)sometimes messes with my perspective of the arts.On one side of the coin techniques were there to score points. Now training is geared to ending a conflict in as few techniques as possible.
Just for the record we do some drills in class utilizing the boxing guard and some of the punching found in that art.I'm particularly fond of using the drop step/right hook. I've found that that technique blends well with concept of getting off the line and closing the gap to your opponent.

Mark

Top
#434246 - 11/28/11 06:01 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I had heard that the 'karate' method may have grown out of the principal of grabbing an opponent and pulling them with the reaction (pull back) hand, whilst either hitting them as you pull them forward onto your fist, or pushing/throwing them with the forward moving (punch) hand.

Having studied a little Wing Chun, I learned the possibility of this also being used in KF.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#434247 - 11/28/11 06:22 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter

I get the theory Duane, but as Dobbersky mentioned, the traditional karate method does leave you exposed to getting punched in the head. A Wado Ryu instructor said traditional karate punching drills were done as a conditioning tool, rather than a practical punching method. I am aware that not everyone in Karate would agree with this!!



If I grab your left arm with my left hand, pull you sideways, step behind you and hit you....not sure how my head is "open". The hand is on the chamber during kata and kihon to teach the "HIKITE" pulling hand. Anyone who walks into a fight with a hand on their hip doesn't understand their karate.


Duane

Top
#434248 - 11/29/11 02:59 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I concur with Duane..the idea that punching from chamber when drilling punches is a suggestion to not defend your head is a ridiculous one. I'm not sure where this came from, I suspect either people not understanding the function of their own kihon training, or just people with no real Karate training making guesses.

Far as 'being for conditioning'..that is something i'll bet you'd hear from plenty of orthodox Japanese Karate schools.

Don't mean to disparage Japanese Karate too hard, but if you are looking at mainstream Japanese Karate (minus a few free thinkers) to figure out what drills are for..you ain't gonna get far.

The "3 k" approach in much Japanese Karate kind of relegates kata, kihon, and in some cases pretty much everything other than sport kumite to mere aesthetics...not the people to ask about function of movements, it isn't a part of their mindset much of the time.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (11/29/11 03:00 AM)

Top
#434249 - 11/29/11 04:14 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Well I would concede I am a Karate Ignoramus, though I have a lot of respect for Karate. This has been an enlightening discussion. From my own point of view I still wouldn't be comfortable punching like the first method Dobbersky mentioned. Making sure I grab someone and turn them before they've had a chance to punch me would be a big if for me lol!! That's more to do with my own lack of reflex though!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#434250 - 11/29/11 06:54 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
First of all why do you consider ''punching from the hip'' to be all there is to a ''karate punch''?

Most people are doing this rigid kumite style hip punching without knowing or understanding any real implications behind it - they believe and think that pucnhing like that is an ''absolute'' or a ''final form''

While I think it is just a way, when starting to learn, to practice using your hips & legs it's an exaggeration in order to start learning the basics of what I consider a ''karate punch'' to be - the body mechanics as a whole.

The whole ''the chambering hand is really meant to pull/block/intiate some form of grapple'' is certainly feasible but to just practice this way with that in mind is ridiculous - it's one option one very viable option that should be practiced but I still choose to practice most of my punching from a very ''not karate like'' guard as I've been told.

Frankly that doesn't phase me - a technique is made of the body mechanic. Not chambering to the hip does not mean you aren't practicing karate or punching ''like a boxer not a karateka''.

Top
#434251 - 11/29/11 07:23 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hmmm. There are a lot of folk here that decry how the karate masses "don't know" what they are doing or have "no understanding" about hip chambers, but I ask.....why is that?

Duane makes a fair point about chamber being used for pulling, but how many schools allow grabbing in sparring? Not many that I have seen.

There is a correlation here.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#434252 - 11/29/11 08:00 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: MattJ]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Interesting, Matt. That seems to be the issue Dobbersky referred to: Karate schools who use this traditional method of training but never employ it in a practical way in Kihon/Kumite.

I suppose if you can't use it in sparring or in any practical application, as Zach mentioned, your training time may be better spent doing something else.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#434253 - 11/29/11 11:50 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
Well I would concede I am a Karate Ignoramus, though I have a lot of respect for Karate. This has been an enlightening discussion. From my own point of view I still wouldn't be comfortable punching like the first method Dobbersky mentioned. Making sure I grab someone and turn them before they've had a chance to punch me would be a big if for me lol!! That's more to do with my own lack of reflex though!

Grabbing and punching are central to our style of Karate. The point being that once you come in contact you don't let go. This "stickiness" is important.I have been taught that once you engage an opponent "stick to them."It isn't a easy concept for me coming out of a tournement background.
The point is that with practice the grab and counter should be virtually at the same time.I'm old and slowing down, but I strive to make the grab and counter strike as seamless as I can make it.

Mark

Top
#434255 - 11/29/11 02:18 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
To those folks who train it as a movement with practical application (e.g. the grab and punch) is it more of a pre-emptive movement? Or would you consider it viable once the fight was well under way?

Just curious as I find it an interesting subject.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#434256 - 11/29/11 03:47 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Works for me either way.
Duane
_________________________
Duane

Top
#434257 - 11/29/11 05:38 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: MattJ]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: MattJ
Hmmm. There are a lot of folk here that decry how the karate masses "don't know" what they are doing or have "no understanding" about hip chambers, but I ask.....why is that?

Duane makes a fair point about chamber being used for pulling, but how many schools allow grabbing in sparring? Not many that I have seen.

There is a correlation here.

MattJ- most wouldn't consider our Goju class workout as sparring.There's a one one one between opponents, but the working on combinations,and throws are a means to an end. Our goal is to end the conflict in as few techniques as possible.

mark

Top
#434260 - 11/29/11 07:23 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Matt, that's a good point, and that really goes to the heart of it.

The truth is that much modern Karate is centered around the "3 k" approach I was talking about, in that kind of setup there is very little training of anything for 'sparring'...or any live practice really outside of standard point style kumite.

There are guys out there who get this stuff, they just aren't from the 'orthodox' camp..though I suspect they are every bit as traditional as a JKA guys, if not more.

Even oldschool boxing used something closer to a fence concept than the modern high and tight guard, so I wouldn't expect to see 'guards' anywhere in TMA outside of competitive pugilism.

As to why practice punching from the chamber, it's one way to see whether or not people are popping up their shoulders prior to their punch creating a tell, and whether or not they are immediately replacing one punch with another, there is more to it than this stuff, but these things matter.

I don't consider punching this way to be a direct attempt at replicating a dynamic situation exactly..it's a way of reinforcing and checking for specific body mechanics like not flaring out your elbows, using the right muscles, learning to put two punches into "one beat".

I know this sounds foreign to people who come from a boxing PoV, where the shoulders are often held up, and the center is shifted to the lead foot..but it is a big deal in many traditional arts, and IMO it has it's merits.




Edited by Zach_Zinn (11/29/11 07:49 PM)

Top
#434262 - 11/30/11 12:58 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
This late at night I would like to offer a foreign viewpoint. In Aikido the act of "chambering" would be a way of insuring that when you delivered your act, your whole body would be behind it, not just your arm.

Top
#434264 - 11/30/11 10:31 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
However most effective when done at the beginning of the fight to end it quickly.

Duane

Top
#434265 - 11/30/11 10:37 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: MattJ]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: MattJ


Duane makes a fair point about chamber being used for pulling, but how many schools allow grabbing in sparring? Not many that I have seen.

There is a correlation here.


The difference between karate-do-karate designed to build character and better citizens through sport training and karate-jitsu-karate designed to win a real fight.
There are some Okinawan karate teachers who are considering changing the name of what they do from karate to toude. This would be done to differentiate between do and jitsu. The new way and the old way.

Duane

Top
#434266 - 11/30/11 11:05 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: iaibear]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 904
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All,

Excellent and dare I say awesome posts by everyone with regards to this topic!!!

May I add that in the various "Sabaki" Competitions from Ashihara and Enshin and Daiko Juku Grabing IS allowed as part of the genre of "legal" techniques

May I add that "karate punching" is dare i say not punching at all but a practice of Kyoushi



Take the basic Grab/Stance in Judo,

Left Hand on the opponent's Right Shoulder/Lapel, Right Hand grasping the underneath of the opponent's Left Elbow - very similar to the position of the basic Karate front stance!!!

Now with the Punch, the Hikite, you get the push/pull action, whilst twisting the opponent's shoulder to one side creating him/her to be off-balance. This in succession can become a basic throw!!!

This is how I teach the Karate Punching aswell as the Grab and punch as discussed above

Again thank you all
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#434283 - 12/06/11 12:24 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
People punch that way precisely because they fail to ask, "why?" Traditional martial arts instruction does not encourage critical thinking. The idea is that the art was perfected at some point in the past, and the task today is to preserve the sacred tradition. People just assume that because those silly movements are in the art, they must have a practical purpose. They don't.

Top
#434285 - 12/06/11 09:36 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 904
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
People punch that way precisely because they fail to ask, "why?" Traditional martial arts instruction does not encourage critical thinking. The idea is that the art was perfected at some point in the past, and the task today is to preserve the sacred tradition. People just assume that because those silly movements are in the art, they must have a practical purpose. They don't.


Need I say any more!!!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#434286 - 12/06/11 11:09 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Has anybody considered the different levels of developement?
-The level of creation. To learn the form of a technique. (The ideal form for learning purposes in a training envoronment. )
-The level of application. (Allows for deformation of form to (counter-)attack at a certain time in conflict.)
These different levels of developement have different purposes. These are also to outer edges of the scale which leads form developing towards applying.
Sparring is limited in regards to these levels. (Kihon-kumite comes close to the first level, but has already different purposes. Sparring limits the level of application because it is rule-bound. EDIT: Karate isn't rule-bound!!)
Your job as a karateka (MAist) it is to be aware of these limitations and try to work within or around them. Be creative and be critical.


Edited by Ives (12/06/11 11:10 AM)
Edit Reason: Addition
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434287 - 12/06/11 11:59 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Ives]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri


Great point! Karate as a form of SD isn't bound by rules.It's only bound by our own level of restraint.Here is the part where we decide how much force we can use in defense of us or others.Punching or other strikes are to be used with the goal of stopping the threat, not scoring points.This of course is the traditional view on the subject.I realize that competition is fun and challenging. It just is a different way of doing karate.There is room for everyone to have there version of karate. We should respect that .


Mark

Top
#434288 - 12/06/11 01:46 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: gojuman59]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Competition is only a small part of my karate. Most of the times I use it to test some of my techniques. Scoring points could be a side-effect.

And for the record when sparring I tend to use my karate punches (choku-zuki) not from hikite-position but from my guard (lower than your average boxing guard).
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434289 - 12/07/11 01:38 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Ives]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I think you hit the nail on the head Ives, people see kihon and they think it's a direct replication of how you use technique, it's not, it's a staged way of teaching, and testing certain habits.

Top
#434290 - 12/07/11 04:14 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn
...it's a staged way of teaching, and testing certain habits.

I'ld like to add: programming and polishing (somewhere between teaching and testing) and mechanics and principles at the end.

Do you see it's close relation to kata?
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434291 - 12/07/11 07:26 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
All,

May I add that "karate punching" is dare i say not punching at all but a practice of Kyoushi


Excuse my ignorance, what is Kyoushi? I know Kyusho and tuite. Considering all the time the Okinawans spend on hitting the makiwara with the "karate punch" I think it is safe to say that it is a punch-at least some of the time.

Duane

Top
#434292 - 12/07/11 07:28 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
People punch that way precisely because they fail to ask, "why?" Traditional martial arts instruction does not encourage critical thinking. The idea is that the art was perfected at some point in the past, and the task today is to preserve the sacred tradition. People just assume that because those silly movements are in the art, they must have a practical purpose. They don't.


I think based on some of the responses/explanations that have described the reasons they do in fact have a practical purpose.

Duane

Top
#434293 - 12/07/11 07:31 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn
I think you hit the nail on the head Ives, people see kihon and they think it's a direct replication of how you use technique, it's not, it's a staged way of teaching, and testing certain habits.


Like judging a college level educational system by looking at 2nd grade.

Duane

Top
#434294 - 12/07/11 09:52 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5820
Loc: USA
NOT A RESPONSE TO DUANEW--OOPS

"Traditional martial arts instuction does not encourage critial thinking"

Maybe, I would suggest that depends on whom is teaching it. As it it sounds a little to clase to a generalization for my taste.

"the idea is that the art was perfected at some point in the past and the task today is to preserve the sacred tradition."

So you would walk into a MMA gym and or maybe a boxing gym and start telling the person teaching class that he was doing the upper cut or the right cross "wrong" because doing it that way is just some "sacred tradition?" wink

I think a distinction needs to be drawn between what is a "sacred tradition" and "this is how we do it." The former is often too much for me--but the latter often makes sense. It is why we have different arts--people do things in diffrent ways and some ways work better for some people.

"People just assume that just because those silly movements are in the are, they must have a practical purpose. They don't."

Again, not that such a statement is entirely wrong---its NOT. Just lacks some analysis. As an example:

1-How exactly would a newbie at pretty much anything know the difference between "silly movements" and something important?"

2-"Silly movements" kinda (IMO) depends on whom exactly your talking about--watched the last seasion of the Ultimate fighter and saw some people getting pretty badly messed up with techniques that would be pretty much sucicide for less skilled folks.

3-"They do't." Again, maybe, maybe not. I'd say that depends on exactly what you are talking about instead of blanket statement.


Edited by cxt (12/07/11 09:54 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#434295 - 12/07/11 01:55 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Here is my go at fileboy2002's post. It's just my look on those statements.

Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
People punch that way precisely because they fail to ask, "why?"

That is generalisation. Practice needs theory, if you ask why you need to learn punching in a certain way and your instructor can't answer that then probably (s)he shouldn't be teaching. Or at least (s)he should try to find out the reason why.

Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
Traditional martial arts instruction does not encourage critical thinking.


Another generalisation. I practice TMA and we in our school are encouraged to be critical. Why do some things work and some don't? What am I doing and why am I doing it this way?

Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
The idea is that the art was perfected at some point in the past, and the task today is to preserve the sacred tradition.


Whose idea is this? We change constantly, we get older for instance. By the time that I'm 70 I might not be as physically fit as I am now at nearly 30. What do I do with that knowledge in regards to my training? I know that because I train in a certain school of karate that I am part of a tradition. That is because that is tradition that has certain methods of teaching. They paved the 'Way' so to speak with a curriculum and training aids like sparring etc. Why should I try to reinvent the wheel?You don't negate modern society aswell do you?

Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
People just assume that because those silly movements are in the art, they must have a practical purpose. They don't.

If you consider kihon-choku-zuki to be a silly movement, you have to start asking yourself why you are supposed to learn it that way... (first)
They certainly have a 'practical' purpose. It's backed up by logic=theory.
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434297 - 12/08/11 08:47 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Ives]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
*Sigh*

I hesitated to post my answer to this question precisely because I knew I'd get responses like yours--"you're overgeneralizing," "my school isn't like that," "not all schools do that," blah, blah, blah.

I do not understand why some people cannot make a distinction between general statements and categorical ones. Of course I don't mean ALL TMA schools! Of course there are exceptions.

I wish every conversation of this kind didn't get bogged down in endless demands that everything said be so minutely qualified. Can't we just understand that we are speaking generally and that exceptions exist without having to do this every single time?

Top
#434298 - 12/08/11 10:29 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I think most of what you said is indeed, generally true.

However I don't think it's limited to TMA, I think it's just easier to get worse results in TMA because there are so many layers that are totally useless if you are not instructed in what they are for, and they are just done as busywork "just because". If it would be like if someone taught you how to hit a speedbag and never explained how to properly do it, or what it is supposed to accomplish.

This is what you see with a ton of mainstream TKD and Karate, and you are right that the results aren't pretty.

Quote:
Can't we just understand that we are speaking generally and that exceptions exist without having to do this every single time?


Not really, because the context of the thread is the usefulness of this method of punching, and that is only possible for people who understand what it is for in the first place. Clearly if someone goes to a "just because" school, the question of usefulness is already answered!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (12/08/11 10:34 PM)

Top
#434299 - 12/09/11 04:58 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
@ Zach_Zinn:
"Just because" school, the 'new' flavour next to McDojo. eek
I agree that many seem to forget those questions; what's the purpose, why; when they enter a dojo.

@Fileboy2002:
Well I didn't mean to address you personally. But in the end you made those generalised statements. I myself make mistakes in that direction also, but I try not to generelise. No bad intentions however! It raised some good angles to the discussion I think. smile

Next to politics in organisations I think these thoughts about the techniques, methods and principles bihind them, have led to the developement of different styles and offshouts etc.

Realising the purpose of or the logic behind certain techniques and methods can lead to great 'Aha-Erlebnisse' insights in your chosen path in the martial arts. It all starts with questions.

I'ld like to hear what the views of the OP are after analysing the different views offered in this thread. (And the ones on the other forums. grin )

BTW I never use(d) that many smilies in one post. There must e a first time for some things. wink
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434300 - 12/09/11 11:21 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5820
Loc: USA

"heavy sigh" wink

And I can't understand why people can't take the time to simply say "in general" when they post statements that are, by any basic standard, phrased/framed in a provocitive manner.

I also took the time to provide an example/question/posit/suggestion on one mans "sacred tradition" and "silly" techniques, I belive the terms were---might be viewed very differently from a slightly different angle/perspective.

I'm all for discussion, lets have one. smile
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#434301 - 12/09/11 07:55 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: cxt]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Those are fair points. Let me answer them.

The problem with always adding qualifiers (e.g. "in general," "in many cases," "broadly speaking") isn't that it takes to much time to write, but that it makes prose clunky and tedious. Littering your writing with endless qualifying phrases makes it annoying as hell to read.

As far as the example, I think it is case of apples and oranges. We don't need to speculate about whether uppercuts and right crosses are effective--we KNOW they are. The reason we know is because they are constantly tested under realistic conditions. This is not the case with many (NOT ALL!!!!) TMA techniques because, generally speaking (THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS!!!) they are not testing under anything even vaguely approaching realistic conditions.

Top
#434302 - 12/09/11 08:12 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Gonna disagree here.

I'd be willing to bet that there are MORE people doing untested right crosses and uppercuts via stuff like 'cardio kickboxing' and whatnot than there are people doing untested TMA techniques.

If your litmus test is simply the number of people testing it or not, then TMA is probably actually tested more often, cardio martial arts classes involving no actual martial arts training are huge. You cannot in good conscience argue that the right cross of a soccer mom is the same as a right cross of a real boxer, so also it is not appropriate to argue that the TMA punch of someone who doesn't suck is the same as someone who has no idea what they are doing.

Secondly, taking the punching form we are talking about and asking someone to 'apply it for real' is like asking someone to apply speedbag training in a dynamic environment, while they certainly do, it obviously isn't in the exact manner as pummelling on a speedbag.

It is a way of training and testing certain habits, not a one to one skill you are going to duplicate in a dynamic situation..just like a speedbag.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (12/09/11 08:14 PM)

Top
#434303 - 12/09/11 11:12 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Huh???

The people doing "punches" as part of cardio-kickboxing classes aren't even attempting to punch effectively. Cardio-kickboxing is utterly irrelevant to this topic.

The relevant comparison is between boxers, wrestlers, judoka and others who apply techniques against actively resisting opponents under realistic conditions, and those who simply do them in the air in front off mirrors, in kata, and so on. The former KNOW which techniques are effective because they test them out on a regular basis. The latter can only HOPE they will be able to apply techniques effectively should the need arise.

Top
#434305 - 12/10/11 12:21 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
There is something fundamentally off in your claim, that the people practicing this kind of punching in front of a mirror only 'hit air'. There are a ton of Karate schools that do hard sparring and contact, hit bags, hit pads, etc. that do this exact drill, so you are i'm not sure where you get the idea that anyone who does it is just hitting air exclusively.

What's really up for debate is whether or not the principles in this kind of drill are being used in the sparring or what have you,you are trying to make it sound like there are only two camps, one which does nothing but resistant training, and the other which does nothing but hit air, and that the air hitters are the only ones practicing punching drills like this. That is incorrect in the extreme, seeing as this stuff is done by Kyokushin, and i'm guessing other Japanese knockdown schools as well, in addition to the 'air hitters'.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (12/10/11 12:31 AM)

Top
#434306 - 12/10/11 04:38 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
choonbee Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 195
The boxing trainers that I've run across in my training encourage us to do rounds of "shadowboxing" in front of a mirror to practice the proper punching form for the 4 main boxing punches. (Jab, cross, hook, uppercut), and combinations of those strikes which we use in boxing sparring.
I've never used a reverse punch in karate sparring, or a palm strike, or any sort of chop. I would use them in a self defense situation, however.
_________________________
Insert profound martial arts quotes or tough guy phrases here.

Top
#434307 - 12/10/11 06:52 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002


The relevant comparison is between boxers, wrestlers, judoka and others who apply techniques against actively resisting opponents under realistic conditions, .


I believe you just listed off a bunch of sports.....where are the realistic conditions? Boxers wrap their hands to prevent breaking them and then put them in a glove...realistic? Tyson broke his hand in a real fight against another boxer outside the ring=reality. A technique that requires artificial support to allow it's use isn't realistic. The karate "punch" wasn't the main hand technique until karate was introduced into the school system. The punch was added to make it safer for the kids-so they wouldn't injure each other. If you truly want to hit either use an open hand or as one Okinawan karate master said, "Punch the makiwara 100 times with each hand each day for one year to develop a proper punch."
If you are going to use sport results to determine what is best in combat you are back to apples and oranges. It makes a good fruit salad. As a martial artist going on over 35 years and police trainer, and having trained on the makiwara I still don't punch people in the head-it's open hand time. But what would I know about a real fight...I don't compete in sports.

Duane

Top
#434308 - 12/10/11 08:00 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Full contact sports like boxing and MMA offer training that is as realistic as possible within the limits of safety and sanity. No, a boxing match or MMA match is not a "real" fight. But such training is infinitely more realistic than anything offered in 99.9% of TMA schools. Please, let's stop refusing to see the obvious!

Top
#434309 - 12/10/11 08:47 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
Huh???

The people doing "punches" as part of cardio-kickboxing classes aren't even attempting to punch effectively. Cardio-kickboxing is utterly irrelevant to this topic.

I agree with you that cardio-kickboxing isn't really fair to compare to. We should however take into consideration the people that practice types of cardio-workouts, that have the false sense of confidence that they are able to defend theirselfs in fight with their 'cardio-techniques'.

Originally Posted By: fileboy2002

The relevant comparison is between boxers, wrestlers, judoka and others who apply techniques against actively resisting opponents under realistic conditions, and those who simply do them in the air in front off mirrors, in kata, and so on.

That doesn't really relate to the original question. Boxers are know to practice the same kind of 'kara-waza'* like karateka, only limited to striking, where karateka do this to most offensive and defensive techniques. (*Techniques in the air.)

Originally Posted By: fileboy2002

The former KNOW which techniques are effective because they test them out on a regular basis. The latter can only HOPE they will be able to apply techniques effectively should the need arise.


I don't see how they test them out on a regular basis in a realistic setting. We use throws and sweeps in our karate school, we test them on the hard gymfloor, which I find slightly more realistic then on Judo's tatami. I tell you, it shock's you up good and it can hurt like hell.
We punch bar-knuckle on a hard-surfaced bogu (the koshiki karate/ daido juku stuff). I find that also slightly more realistic than the well wrapped and gloved boxing fists (and sometimes headguard).

Let's discuss maai, the concept of fighting distance (I know I'm drifting from the original topic). Do you consider the boxing, wrestling, judo distance realistic for a streetfight to the death? I'm sure I would try to stick to our rather long maai. Especially since I cannot clearly distinguish a conceiled knife. (I know this is actually quite realistic in certain neighborhood in the UK.) Do those named martial sports consider headbutting.

Back to the original question: why do we train the kihon karate version of punching? Because of the purpose of developing which is discussed already. To create technique; the most ideal version of the punch. Which has in that stage (kihon: developement of technique) not yet to do with application.

But yes, you are right to say that a great deal of today's so called TMA doesn't have a clue about that. Maybe because they have that false idea that competition is realistic. (But it's actually only a small part of training.) Many of today's so called TMA could be considered SMA, XMA or CMA (S: sports, X: extreme or C: cardio) I prefer to train with budo in mind, or at least try to acomplish that, which is hard every now and then.

EDIT:
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002

Full contact sports like boxing and MMA offer training that is as realistic as possible within the limits of safety and sanity. No, a boxing match or MMA match is not a "real" fight. But such training is infinitely more realistic than anything offered in 99.9% of TMA schools. Please, let's stop refusing to see the obvious!


I disagree with this first statement. Have a look at Kudo for example, adn yes it has a competition format.
Boxing totally neglects the legs, which are very powerfull weapons. I can use my feet in a way that makes you think again about continuing a fight. Or I could choose to walk away after that.
Boxing and MMA aren't real fights, I agree. So are Kyokushin matches no real fights. They are all limited.
I also agree that many TMA don't train in way that comes close to realism.

But in the end, that hasn't much value to the original question. (Although it realates.)


Edited by Ives (12/10/11 08:55 AM)
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434319 - 12/15/11 12:16 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5820
Loc: USA
FileBoy

We are not writing novels here--so "clunky" prose is hardly a problem. And in context with the post you CHOSE to use provocative terms/framing--so the qualifier would have been warrented to avoid this exact conversation.

As to your example:

"we don't need to speculate about weither or not uppercuts and right crosses are effective--we KNOW they are."

Maybe, maybe not---I would guess that any number of people have TRIED to throw a good right cross or uppercut and FAILED miserably--I have done so myself and been on the receiving end of some pretty sucky attempts at strikes.

So the question becomes:

--Was it the fault of TECHNIQUE--as in something was deeply, fundamentally, wrong with their version of an uppercut or right cross?

--Was it the fault of how it was TAUGHT?

--Or did they (and I) simply APPLY it poorly?

You see the difference here right?

As the saying goes "Its a poor workmen who blames his tools."

"realistic conditions"

I may or may not agree with you here. Depends on how you define "realistic conditions."

Other than LEO's and Military folks how many people are really going to be getting into life or death combat on a regular basis?
And how many people training actually know what such a fight is going to be like?

"Realistic" attacks often involve firearms--do you spend a couple of hours a day shooting at the range and do you have permit to carry concealed?
I've got a buddy that would argue that if you DON'T your not training "for real."
Sometime knives or other weapons are involved---are you training to use knives and clubs or to fight against them? And if so how do you test that your doing it in a "realistic" fashion?

In term of stright H-T-H, many of my MMA/boxing buddies train to fight in a specific weight class. How "realistic" is it to assume your opponent is going to be EXATLY a guy your height, weight etc?
Most of the "realistic" fights I have seen have been big, muscular, mean dudes attacking much smaller, weaker, people.
So how often do you train/fight waaay outside your weight class? And how "realistic" is your training if you don't?

My boxing buddies train under the assumption that they won't be tackled or kicked in the knee, groin etc---they train HARD btw, but they are training to fight other boxers in non-professional bouts.
You could argue that PARTS of their training are very "realistic" but parts are not. THEY would argue that there is a DIFFERENCE between what they would do in the ring and what they would do "for real."

"You fight like you train" is more often than not accurate--but I'm pretty sure my boxing buddies would be able to do some serious damage despite the "limits" of their training.

Also the really serious altercations I have seen were blindside, "sneak" attacks--with a weapon or by multiple people suddenly rushing somebody
Do you train vs those kinds of situations? If not, then how "realistic" is your training?

Like I said before, watching the Ultimate Fighter I watched people use techniques that I would consider really stupid--such a jump spinning backfist against a highly trained, skilled, and tough fighter--thing is sometimes it WORKEDand KO'ed/TKO'ed somebody.
Pretty silly, "unrealistic" technique when you think about it--but in the right hands, in the right situation it worked pretty well. My guess is that most of what you think of as "unrealistic" might just fall in the same catagory.


Edited by cxt (12/15/11 12:30 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#434324 - 12/19/11 06:34 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: cxt]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 904
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All

I haven't had access to a computer for a while, this has become an awesome Thread, with some excellent arguements giving the ethos behind the Punching methods used.

The main point of the "Karate Punch" IS the use of "Hikite" which is totally how I see it but more on Stand-up Grappling than actual striking! I suppose its the same as application to the kata, everyone has a different concept as to what each technique is used for. Its not wrong its just a different way of fighting.

I must say That All techniques come from the floor not just the hip, no matter what the position of the strike.

Just as a "Matter of Fact" (Laboratory Conditions) Its was proven that the "Boxing Punch" was the hardest of them all


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwW-GWmrXW8



This is from the Show "Fight Science", I am sure you all remember it. I don't have the exact sequence of everyone from the various Martial Arts Styles punching, but the Boxer WAS much higher than the next closest!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#434325 - 12/20/11 02:32 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Not exactly a reliable across the board test lol, not sure I consider a silly show like that definitive 'proof' of something. Man I hate MA TV shows. How did they select who should even be on the show?

Anyway there are things other than power generation involved in karate punching, such as ease of disengaging, and maintaining upright posture at all times when striking so your posture is harder to break for knees, throws, etc. All that stuff is part of 'basic' Karate punching, IMO.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (12/20/11 02:37 AM)

Top
#434326 - 12/20/11 05:43 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky

The main point of the "Karate Punch" IS the use of "Hikite"[...]

I disagree. Hikite has several purposes, one of them being grappling, one being recieving, etc.
The one used in kihon is: being the ideal starting position for the following strike in that particular excersise. (Usually kara-zuki, but also frequently used with makiwara-zuki or shiwari-zuki.)
In kumite hikite is hardly used, because you have to cover your weak spots.
The hikite used in a grappling-situation isn't always returning to the side of the body. That is just as dependant on the situation as the start of your punch is.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
[...] which is totally how I see it but more on Stand-up Grappling than actual striking!

That is in my opinion a too narrow understanding of both karate punching and hikite.

Karate has many types of punching, more than western-boxing has.
Here is just a short list of the types that come to mind:
Jun-zuki, gyaku-zuki, oi-zuki, choku-zuki, ura-zuki, tate-ken-zuki, kara-zuki, kizami-zuki, mawashi-zuki, etc.
The last two (kizami-zuki and mawashi-zuki) are (judging by my limited boxing experience) most similar to the jab and cross/hook.

These punches can all start from a hikite-position, but in application it will be rather stupid to do since you create 'suki' (opening in kamae) right before you initiate your seme. (Here is that gap between kihon and kumite again.) During kumite you have your guard up. In kihon you usually don't.

The guard in karate is lower than a boxing guard which has a purpose. In boxing you are rulebound not to use any kicks or grabbing. In karate all is allowed (unless you compete or train with certain safety measures). This means the maai will be larger because the reach of you and your opponent is longer because of kicks. This also meens choku-zuki is more logical to apply than mawashi-zuki. Choku-zuki has a more efficient route towards the target and is less telegraphed.
This lower guard used in karate enables for better protection of you weak spots. One being very nasty if not protected properly shocked Because of longer maai routes choku/straight attacks will be focussed on.

Originally Posted By: Dobbersky

Just as a "Matter of Fact" (Laboratory Conditions) Its was proven that the "Boxing Punch" was the hardest of them all

I haven't seen the 'prove' or the experiment. But were these subjects (probees) of similar build? Did this boxing punch start from the boxing guard? How many subjects were tested? How many punches were tested? (Did thes subjects wore mitts?
These are just some of the questions that rise when I hear of such an experiment.
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434327 - 12/20/11 10:32 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Ives]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: Ives

The guard in karate is lower than a boxing guard which has a purpose. In boxing you are rulebound not to use any kicks or grabbing. In karate all is allowed (unless you compete or train with certain safety measures). This means the maai will be larger because the reach of you and your opponent is longer because of kicks.


I understand that. On the other side of the coin, a common attack (according to crime stats for unarmed assaults in places like the UK at least) relate to a person getting punched, usually in the head. Is it better to spend a lot of time learning to protect the head from strikes or to learn how to cover the whole body (which may mean less time is spent learning to protect the head). I suppose that is individual preference.

Regarding Fight "Science", it was hardly objective. They had a heavyweight boxer and rated him agains a TKD (or Karate) guy of middleweight build, and a Kung Fu guy of lightweight build. It wasn't very scientific.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#434328 - 12/20/11 01:27 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Prizewriter]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
I too have seen data that show the most common attack is a punch to the head (most times the left side since the majority of people are righthanded).
From the karate guard however you can block (age-uke or shajo-uke) quite fast.
But, when attacked you will hardly have your guard up, in either karate-guard or a boxing guard, becasue most attacks outside the ring/shiaijo are surprise attacks or overly telegraphed attacks.
Getting into a guard when confronted can have different results; telling you are ready for action, telling you have some understanding of MA, taking away your surprise counter, etc.

Guarding the head is a good idea. But intercepting/blocking a kick to the stomach is going to be harder from the high boxing guard.

To be clear: we're talking application / kumite here. You see that the hikite position, as used in kihon, isn't to be used in these situations.
If anyone thinks that a karate-punch means: one arm out to make contact, other arm held at the side of the body at waist level; then they have missed some steps in training towards kumite. (In my opinion that is.) The only reason why we do that in karate is for the purpose of creation of technique. An that is because 'choku-zuki' isn't a natural motion to the human body. It is a learnt motion both on a physical as a cognitive level.
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434334 - 12/23/11 07:05 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: fileboy2002]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: fileboy2002
People punch that way precisely because they fail to ask, "why?" Traditional martial arts instruction does not encourage critical thinking.


Yep. For years in TKD I was taught the two foreknuckle punch was the only way... then a bit of boxing, and later wing chun, showed me other ways...
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#434351 - 12/29/11 01:11 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: trevek]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
The two foreknuckle punch is anatomically incorrect anyway...

I just have one question based on some of the earlier discussion on punching and kihon I picked these questions based on Ives posts.

If Kihon is supposed to be the perfection of technique and also by popular theory a place from where to start creating muscle memory why differ some critical aspects so greatly?

And again why the ''gap in kihon and kumite'' if you have someone do Kihon for 6-12 maybe even more months without any sparring and all that time he is keeping his guard low, core ''soft'', heels on the ground or whatever else travesties and then suddenly he starts doing Kumite and hears that this was a ''gap'' then what the hell was the point of it all?

If Kihon is training to reach a ''perfect technique'' (something we will never reach as such a thing would go against the essence of Martial Arts and well common sense) then how can there be any gap in practical fundementals in Kihon and Kumite?

Top
#434353 - 12/29/11 06:44 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
The two foreknuckle punch is anatomically incorrect anyway...




Huh? What does that mean?

Duane

Top
#434354 - 12/29/11 06:50 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Matakiant

If Kihon is training to reach a ''perfect technique'' (something we will never reach as such a thing would go against the essence of Martial Arts and well common sense) then how can there be any gap in practical fundementals in Kihon and Kumite?



Funny, I was always taught that one of the goals of the martial arts was the pursuit of perfection...must have been another "gap" in my training.

Duane

Top
#434355 - 12/29/11 07:06 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: duanew
Originally Posted By: Matakiant

If Kihon is training to reach a ''perfect technique'' (something we will never reach as such a thing would go against the essence of Martial Arts and well common sense) then how can there be any gap in practical fundementals in Kihon and Kumite?



Funny, I was always taught that one of the goals of the martial arts was the pursuit of perfection...must have been another "gap" in my training.

Duane


The pursuit is perfection but achieving it would go against the essence of martial arts.

To keep pursuing perfection means to keep learning.

Achieving ''perfection'' would mean there is nothing else to learn.

The foreknuckle comment my bad habbit of generalisation. It is fine as long as the bones align with the wrist.. But I have seen a lot of schools teach and practice so the wrist turns to ''bring out the knuckles'' which is a load of crap.. I personally don't form a ''fist'' before impact most of the time and when I do form a fist I prefer the Isshin Ryu fist the most.

Top
#434357 - 12/29/11 07:20 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
The two foreknuckle punch is anatomically incorrect anyway...

I am curious for your reasoning. I believe it is the anatomically correct way because it is the most unforced alignment of the wrist hand and arm bones.
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
I just have one question based on some of the earlier discussion on punching and kihon I picked these questions based on Ives posts.

If Kihon is supposed to be the perfection of technique and also by popular theory a place from where to start creating muscle memory why differ some critical aspects so greatly?

Please elaborate on "some" critical aspects.
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
And again why the ''gap in kihon and kumite'' if you have someone do Kihon for 6-12 maybe even more months without any sparring and all that time he is keeping his guard low, core ''soft'', heels on the ground or whatever else travesties and then suddenly he starts doing Kumite and hears that this was a ''gap'' then what the hell was the point of it all?

That's exactly one of the reasons people start asking these questions about punching methods.
The method of punching in karate (primarily the straight punch) - and maybe also the method of kicking (front kick) - is an unnatural movement to the human body and mind. That's why you create these techniques first on the level of cognition. Here the route and the logic behind it come in to play.
Training Kihon develope techniques that are relatively independent of other body parts, or stance. A preferred kamae in kumite comes to mind.
The use of a guard in kihon training isn't necessary because it serves a different purpose.
Originally Posted By: Matakiant

If Kihon is training to reach a ''perfect technique'' (something we will never reach as such a thing would go against the essence of Martial Arts and well common sense) then how can there be any gap in practical fundementals in Kihon and Kumite?

I speak of an ideal technique for the purpose of creation. Perfect techniques aren't defined. What is neaded is an efficient technique, that is essential to karate in my opinion.
The reason why there is a gap between practical fundamentals in kihon in realtion to kumite is actually quite simple. Kumite is dynamic because all opponents are given the options of initiative for action or reaction. Kihon is essentially an individual excercise.

That's why yakusoku-kumite and it's levels of learning for different purposes, maai, chakugan, unsoku etc. is necessary.

Back to the guard; there isn't any reason for that in karate, since you have to be able to launch an attack or recieve from any position and most importantly the reasons mentioned.
Most of the times in a budo situation* there is no time for it. Next to that is telegraphs intentions, thus possibly taking away initiative.

*(By a budo situation I mean one of a life or death encounter.)
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434359 - 12/29/11 07:45 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 904
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I always "Punch" like a "Boxer" when fighting, I always adopt a "boxer's stance too" (although my hands are open palms facing outwards no agressively). The only time the "Karate strike" comes into play is when I actually have a grip on my opponnent.

Regards to strikes to the stomach, I'm not Daniel-san (who dropped to the ground everytime he got hit in the stomach) I have spent years conditioning my stomach etc so I don't "feel" it as much as many others. Either way is that not what Sabaki or Mikuri is for.

When fighting your assailant will not punch with 1 hand and leave it out for you to do so many "defensive" techniques whilst the other hand is by their waist. No they will send in a barage of strikes to your head. If your back hand is by your waist, how will it stop a strike to the head without bring it up to block?

Note before Marquess of Queensberry rules "Boxing" was an all-round Striking AND Grappling system.
In general, boxers are prohibited from hitting below the belt, holding, tripping, pushing, biting, or spitting. They also are prohibited from kicking, head-butting, or hitting with any part of the arm other than the knuckles of a closed fist (including hitting with the elbow, shoulder or forearm, as well as with open gloves, the wrist, the inside, back or side of the hand). They are prohibited as well from hitting the back, back of the neck or head (called a "rabbit-punch") or the kidneys. They are prohibited from holding the ropes for support when punching, holding an opponent while punching, or ducking below the belt of their opponent (dropping below the waist of your opponent, no matter the distance between).
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#434363 - 12/29/11 05:20 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Talking of boxing, if you look at old photos of bare-knuckle boxers they often have their fists vertical, like a wing-chun style fist rather than the modern boxers, who generally train to punch with gloves on.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#434367 - 12/30/11 04:09 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: trevek]
choonbee Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 195
When I train boxing, I keep my fist vertical when I throw a hook.
Elbow in, fist vertical, with my palm facing in.
Having my fist horizontal, palm down with my elbow flared out puts too much strain on my shoulder when I make contact, and it's easier for my opponent to see it coming if my elbow were to flare out.
I think that boxing and karate punches are both good depending on the situation you're in, and I train both.
In a fight or sparring situation, I prefer to keep my hands up and distance properly to avoid kicks. Since I'm usually at a reach disadvantage, I look to get inside by slipping punches and countering. I stay outside of their kicking range until the kick passes, then go inside, or block the kick before it starts if I see it coming, and strike before he regains his footing.
_________________________
Insert profound martial arts quotes or tough guy phrases here.

Top
#434368 - 12/30/11 04:54 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: choonbee]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: choonbee
I think that boxing and karate punches are both good depending on the situation you're in, and I train both.

The so called 'boxing punch' is, and has always been, part of the karate curriculum. (E.g. mawashi-zuki, ura-age-zuki, kizami-zuki.)
The only reason I can think of why the focus of training in most karate schools is on the choku-zuki/straight punch, is because it is the most unnatural of the two types described by the OP. By unnatural I mean, it is a motion that doesn't come natural to most people, and thus needs the most attention in training.

Maybe the best way to differentiate between the 'karate' and 'boxing' punch is based on the mechanics; the first being a delivery method of force from the hip (+ lower shoulder muscles), the later being a delivery method more from the upper shoulder.
They certainly aren't differentiated based on the guard (position of execution), since that isn't static. It's up to the fighter, what they find suitable at the moment, what kind of guard they keep.
(At least not in my book.)
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434369 - 12/30/11 08:09 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Ives]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
In Aikido class when it is my turn to be Nage I stand, knees slightly flexed, with my arms and hands hanging relaxed. That way I can see Uke's feet and can judge when where and how he will attack. Sensei has never corrected me on it.

Top
#434371 - 12/30/11 11:14 AM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: iaibear]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 904
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: iaibear
In Aikido class when it is my turn to be Nage I stand, knees slightly flexed, with my arms and hands hanging relaxed. That way I can see Uke's feet and can judge when where and how he will attack. Sensei has never corrected me on it.


I attended an Aikido Class for about a year and I was always having my "Guard" corrected as my stance etc was of a Boxer's stance and not that of a Budoka.
Only thing I found from Aikido was that no one was taught how to Punch or Kick "correctly" so therefore a few of the attacks if done the way I was taught "didn't" work unless I 'stepped forward' etc.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#434380 - 12/30/11 05:16 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Originally Posted By: iaibear
<<In Aikido class when it is my turn to be Nage I stand, knees slightly flexed, with my arms and hands hanging relaxed. That way I can see Uke's feet and can judge when where and how he will attack. Sensei has never corrected me on it.>>


Spent a glorious time in a recent class doing tsuki kotegaeshi and dumped Uke every time. If you know when and how "he" is coming, it can be very easy to blend with "his" attack and mis-direct "him" to the mat without leaving yourself open at all. But if your hands are in the way in some "high guard", it spoils the view.


Edited by iaibear (12/30/11 05:17 PM)
Edit Reason: forgot a word

Top
#434382 - 12/31/11 02:48 PM Re: Punching Methods - Why? [Re: Ives]
blanch Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/27/10
Posts: 12
Originally Posted By: Ives
Originally Posted By: choonbee
I think that boxing and karate punches are both good depending on the situation you're in, and I train both.

The so called 'boxing punch' is, and has always been, part of the karate curriculum. (E.g. mawashi-zuki, ura-age-zuki, kizami-zuki.)
The only reason I can think of why the focus of training in most karate schools is on the choku-zuki/straight punch, is because it is the most unnatural of the two types described by the OP. By unnatural I mean, it is a motion that doesn't come natural to most people, and thus needs the most attention in training.

Maybe the best way to differentiate between the 'karate' and 'boxing' punch is based on the mechanics; the first being a delivery method of force from the hip (+ lower shoulder muscles), the later being a delivery method more from the upper shoulder.
They certainly aren't differentiated based on the guard (position of execution), since that isn't static. It's up to the fighter, what they find suitable at the moment, what kind of guard they keep.
(At least not in my book.)

I know nothing about karate,but i wouldn't say a boxing style punch comes from the shoulder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sZmEllO_sc
this guy imo,if anything does not rotate his hips nearly enough.

does karate teach you to rotate more than this?

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga