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#434138 - 11/07/11 07:05 PM Double Weighted Front Stance
Jade Dragon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Alaska, USA

Double weightedness is good for pushing and pulling, such as pushing a car, lifting weights, or a tug-of-war. Fighting is much more dynamic and requires the transfer of the power base-stance; to accommodate the best focused wave. Would anyone have a fixed double weighted stance when they surfed, or snow boarded?

“If your weight is back-weighted, basic bio-mechanics will show that you will be prevented from delivering all of your force into the target. “

The Xingyi Quan of the Chinese Army, by Dennis Rovere, page 18.

Having your stance back-weighted also leads to another problem, namely, a tendency to straighten the front leg. Any low kick, such as a Xingyi horse kick targeting the straightened knee, would easily cause it to hyperflex, severely damaging it.”

There are two universal defense against kicks to the knee:
1)angling the knee forward, so the kick gets hit by the front striking area of the knee, rather than the more flexible joint;
2)when in a Cat Stance, T-Stance or San-Ti; the lesser weight of the front foot is shifted backward toward rear leg, and
a) the front leg evades the kick by repositioning or
b) the front leg’s knee is repositioned to hit attacker with
knee or shin strike.

An external kick is limited by biomechanics, an internally generated kick is not.

When one is seasoned by sparring and/or combat; they always keep the front leg slightly bent; one who spends all of their time on forms/Katas only; does not. When you advance, your training prevents this.

A major foundation of Traditional Internal Chinese Martial Arts is the stance concept of having either leg being empty or full. This is not weight, although sometimes they are the same. This is fullness of Qi, stance rooting and a centering of the driving energy.

This is the generator of the wave flow force, using the whole body weight being directed into the strike. Kinematics deals with this somewhat, not biomechanics.

“Sung Shi-Jung
…Therefore, in Hsing-I never equally share the weight on your two feet.”
Hsing-I, Chinese Mind-Body Boxing, by Robert W. Smith, page 98.


Edited by Jade Dragon (11/07/11 07:21 PM)
Edit Reason: Burma Shave
_________________________
The Author of the new book Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout

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#434142 - 11/08/11 05:01 PM Re: Double Weighted Front Stance [Re: Jade Dragon]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Wait you mean i'm not supposed to just stand there statically in these 'stance' things?

Wow man, thanks for that big revelation, i'm glad you were here to teach me these secrets of Chinese IMA, because no way would I ever have learned such a simple commmon sense concept from simply having good training.

Quote:
An external kick is limited by biomechanics, an internally generated kick is not.


Uh..no. Unless you believe in being able to bend the laws of physics, both 'external' and 'internal' are both limited by biomechanics, and are just different methods are learning and progressing.

If you do believe you can alter the laws of phyics, more than likely you are just crazy!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (11/08/11 05:03 PM)

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#434145 - 11/09/11 12:48 AM Re: Double Weighted Front Stance [Re: Zach_Zinn]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Jade Dragon:
<< When one is seasoned by sparring and/or combat; they always keep the front leg slightly bent; one who spends all of their time on forms/Katas only; does not. When you advance, your training prevents this. >>

I can speak only for Iaido where basically all activity is in the form of kata. A front leg not slightly bent would be the object of a considerable lecture from Sensei.


Edited by iaibear (11/09/11 12:51 AM)
Edit Reason: directing my comment

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#434147 - 11/09/11 05:35 AM Re: Double Weighted Front Stance [Re: Zach_Zinn]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn
Wait you mean i'm not supposed to just stand there statically in these 'stance' things?

Wow man, thanks for that big revelation, i'm glad you were here to teach me these secrets of Chinese IMA, because no way would I ever have learned such a simple commmon sense concept from simply having good training.


If you do believe you can alter the laws of phyics, more than likely you are just crazy!


Be careful or he will go all "water" on you and then you will be sorry!

Duane

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#434153 - 11/11/11 08:54 AM Re: Double Weighted Front Stance [Re: iaibear]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 114
Originally Posted By: iaibear
Jade Dragon:
<< When one is seasoned by sparring and/or combat; they always keep the front leg slightly bent; one who spends all of their time on forms/Katas only; does not. When you advance, your training prevents this. >>

I can speak only for Iaido where basically all activity is in the form of kata. A front leg not slightly bent would be the object of a considerable lecture from Sensei.


That's because sword arts get their stances right!

My Karate teacher says that the most simple sword fighting stance is the best stance I tend to agree with him but learning the movement is quite hard at first..

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#434210 - 11/21/11 03:52 PM Re: Double Weighted Front Stance [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Jade Dragon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Alaska, USA
Regarding:
"Uh..no. Unless you believe in being able to bend the laws of physics, both 'external' and 'internal' are both limited by biomechanics, and are just different methods are learning and progressing"

No one talked about bending any laws, let alone physics. You are limiting physics to biomechanics; there is more to physics than mere biomechanics alone.

You assume by projecting your limitations as someone else's; quote where I stated any thing about 'bending the laws of physics'.

Those whose argument lacks principle and logic; many times will attempt to confuse the issue, rather than argue the merits.

Internals were not developed by physics, they are the product of Traditional Chinese Internal Martial Arts; and it is that terminology that is relevant.

Explanations fabricated after the fact of development; are no more than 'Monday Night Quarterbacking' of Sundays football game. Anyone can say or predict anything about the game; after it happened!

Closer explanations in physics are in the realm of:
entrainment;
piezo-electric;
harmonic resonance; and
the easier understood concepts of kinematic wave propagation.

Also Dr. Bjorn Nordenstrom has proven that ion currents flow through the body in preferential ion conductance pathways (PICPs) that are very similar to the Chinese Qi channels.

These so called pathways make up a vascular-interstitial closed circuit (VICC) where energy flows in the mineral infused fluids in the vessels, connective tissue and extracellular (interstitial) spaces. This work is consistent with Albert Szent-Gyorgyi who found that an interactive conductance system of internal water and protein crystal lattice form an "energy transmission continua."




Edited by Jade Dragon (11/21/11 04:03 PM)
Edit Reason: Burma Shave
_________________________
The Author of the new book Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout

Top
#434211 - 11/21/11 04:10 PM Re: Double Weighted Front Stance [Re: iaibear]
Jade Dragon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Alaska, USA
Regarding:
"I can speak only for Iaido where basically all activity is in the form of kata. A front leg not slightly bent would be the object of a considerable lecture from Sensei."

Agreed, I studied Aido also.

It is good that one learns this from kata; this is not mutually exclusive from learning weight distribution through combat training.

This is also taught with the similar methods of Hsing-i 5 Element Saber, as well as being developed at an even higher level with Hsing-i Five Element Spear.

Trainers and educators have found that the multi-media concepts of training with complimentary methods; magnifies the learning experience.


Edited by Jade Dragon (11/21/11 04:22 PM)
Edit Reason: the Leading Edge
_________________________
The Author of the new book Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout

Top
#434212 - 11/21/11 04:17 PM Double Weighted Stance no good [Re: duanew]
Jade Dragon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Alaska, USA
On Topic: Therapy Request

Yellow water for you. Use as you directed.

Regarding:
'Be careful or he will go all "water" on you and then you will be sorry!'



Edited by Jade Dragon (11/21/11 04:27 PM)
Edit Reason: Yellow Dog
_________________________
The Author of the new book Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout

Top
#434215 - 11/21/11 09:03 PM Re: Double Weighted Stance no good [Re: Jade Dragon]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:
You assume by projecting your limitations as someone else's; quote where I stated any thing about 'bending the laws of physics'.

Those whose argument lacks principle and logic; many times will attempt to confuse the issue, rather than argue the merits.

Internals were not developed by physics, they are the product of Traditional Chinese Internal Martial Arts; and it is that terminology that is relevant.


YOu said that external technique was limited by bio mechanics, implying that internal technique is not limited by bio mechanics.

All human motion is by definition limited by bio mechanics.

As far as my 'argument' I don't have one, I am not the one spotting a bunch of unsubstantiated stuff either though, so the burden of proof is on you to prove this stuff, not one me to refute it.

I'm plenty open minded about internal training method, I just think most of what you have posted is either fancy ways of stating the obvious (like the double weighted stance thing), or simply tends towards mysticism.

Clearly you aren't interested in discussion anyway though, just posting this..stuff you are on about.
Quote:
Also Dr. Bjorn Nordenstrom has proven that ion currents flow through the body in preferential ion conductance pathways (PICPs) that are very similar to the Chinese Qi channels


I've actually read about this, and I have a bit of background in alternative healthcare, viewed from that perspective it's pretty interesting.

Really it means diddly squat for functional martial arts though, you stuff either works as advertised or not, that's it..and i've found that internal talk doesn't mean internal skills, because in the end this isn't about theory anyway, it's about practice.

Quote:
Internals were not developed by physics, they are the product of Traditional Chinese Internal Martial Arts; and it is that terminology that is relevant.


If that is so, you would not be spending so much time trying to 'prove it' using reference to western research.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (11/21/11 09:24 PM)

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