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#434177 - 11/16/11 08:07 PM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: gojuman59]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
I'm a young arrogant dog and I think sports =/= martial arts and vice versa.

And yes I DO think that one outrules the other.

As for OP questions;

- Would you hold a person back by virtue of time-served alone even if it's evident they are proficient enough to move forward?

Yes I would. Patience and humility are just as important, for some people even more important than martial technique. Moving forward isn't getting a ''higher rank'' moving forward is supposed to be daily training and improvement of oneself and the martail arts you practice.

- Do you consider prior martial arts experience when someone joins your club when placing them in a class (for instance, beginner, intermediate or advanced), or is that irrelevant? Why or why not?

It depends entirely on the ''experience''.. I've seen people come from other styles with high ranks who in reality didn't know and couldn't do anything practical ''theoretical martial artists'' as I like to call them.

Then there have been some who have BBs or higher in other styles that do deserve those ranks but are lacking many of the techniques in our style typically those people may lose a rank or two but climb back up to them very quickly or we just don't care and let them keep the rank as long as they practice with heart to learn our styles techniques.


- Is "time-served" set in stone, or is the fitness level, prior athletic experience, natural ability, rate of learning, etc. an important thing to consider?

Set in stone. I think people who practice martial arts for the sake of martial arts and self improvement should have these requirements. The ranks are irrelevant to me but most people who genuinely pratice for practice still care about them so having time requirements makes sure that the practitioners don't rush through the basics just to get a prettier belt and so on. As I also said it's a test of patience if someone just wants a BB they can go do Olympic TKD or buy it on ebay.

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#434236 - 11/26/11 11:31 PM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: Christie]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5820
Loc: USA
Christie

You are getting some great feedback here!

My deeply devalued 2 cents:

What is the reason the school has such a time in grade requirement? Maybe they have a school/style-specific answer.

1-I don't put much stock in belt ranks per-se--they tend to differ wildly from school to school--esp between different organizations even in the same style. So no.

2-Couldn't care less--they might progress faster or slower depending on how much they need to "un-learn" in order to progress at their "new" style---not really much much point to additional training if all you are going to do is the same stuff you already are doing.

At that point it's less a question of doing it "effectively" its a question of learning how to make a NEW set of skills/techniques just a "effective" as your "old" set.

Take an extreme example---say someone comes in that is good enough to beat the teacher--do they get an automatic high ranking in TKD? Probably not, no-one is questioningtheir fighting ability but rank in a given art means a lot more than just the ability to fight (IMO :)) I presume that high rank implies having a pretty good grasp of the history of the art and the ability to teach the specific's of that art. Mike Tyson and any number of UFC fighters are major league tough---but I'm not sure that they could teach TKD.

3-I'd go back to question 2--why exactly is someone training?

4-Don't think that "time served" is set in stone. But depending on the reasons you have such requirements I'd make it pretty hard to get around them.

What might be interesting is if you could get a look at the requirements of the seniors in your group---I got a look at the tests once of group I belonged to and found that the requirements---ALL the requirments, INCLUDING time in grade had been SIGNIFICANTLY added too over the years. 20 years back the same guys telling me I needed "X" amount of time in grade and a 2 day long test were testing for the same rank with VASTLY less time in grade AND requirements than I was being asked.

NOT bad guys in any way, shape, or form----just there is a strong tendency to "add" material as time goes on. wink

Something to consider for "time in grade" requiremtents is there is a big difference between really knowing something and just being able to spit it back out on a test. Pretty easy to get a learners permit and start driving---but how long does it take to REALLY be a good and safe driver???

There is something to be said for taking the time to really work with material---there are people out there (non-MA people BTW) that would argue that to really know what your doing---to really understand a skill and do it correct you need (roughly) to practice it for what works out to around 10 years.

Again roughly.

On the other hand if people are sticking folks with time in grade requirements just to get more money out of them?.

Then that bites!



Edited by cxt (11/26/11 11:33 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#434237 - 11/27/11 02:24 PM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: cxt]
hope Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.

CXT said...
"and if people are sticking folks with time in grade requirements just to get more money out of them? Then that bites!"

I think that clubs get more money out of people when they test more frequently -- test and belt fees on top of regular fees.

I totally agree when you say "Pretty easy to get a learners permit and start driving---but how long does it take to REALLY be a good and safe driver???"

To take that further, do belts mean "mastery" or just "permission to start learning the next stage"? I'd lean towards the latter, but maybe some students see it as the former. Students rely on feedback to know whether they're progressing and what they need to work on. Belts are visible feedback, but because of all the issues around them, I wonder if the results of testing would be better communicated privately and not visible to others (except when they happen to notice that a student is working on a more advanced kata).
_________________________
God grant me a good sword and no use for it. -- Polish proverb

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#434268 - 12/01/11 12:43 AM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: hope]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
If anybody is curious, the outcome is that the owner has sided with the manager, and is trying to decide between either asking the student to wait a year instead of the usual 6 months from dbl blk stripe to test for black belt, or returning the student's money and demoting them back down to the previous belt.

Thanks everybody for your sincere thoughts on the issue. After reading everything everybody had to say I find that I'm still torn on the issue in general, although my thoughts on this particular case are pretty clear.

On the one hand, at this particular club your belt limits what you are allowed to learn and practice and so I don't think it's right to hold back an individual that has both the knowledge and the experience (as I stated 14 years in tkd, 6 years in this particular style of tkd) solely because they didn't serve their time at this particular club, at this one particular belt.

On the other, I can see the virtue in patience.

I do truly believe this student is a special case. Making them wait is really only doing just that, making them wait. It isn't really going to accomplish very much more than that. It's keeping up appearances so other students don't ask questions or wonder why they aren't getting to test even though they tested at the same time as this student last time. That's a bad reason to penalize someone.

In a regular circumstance I can see the virtue in time-served requirements. I just think it's detrimental to regard them dogmatically.


Edited by Christie (12/01/11 12:48 AM)

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#434271 - 12/01/11 08:47 AM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: Christie]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
How is the attitude of the student in question? Will being held back or demoted wreck this person?This has been a good topic that I have ran over with a few people. Interestingly the attitude of my group was pretty much split down the middle.
Personally, I wouldn't want to hold one back if they have what It takes.On the other hand there's something to be said about attitude and percevierence.Dan ranking should be more than the physical techniques, in my opinion.

Mark


Edited by gojuman59 (12/01/11 08:49 AM)

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#434273 - 12/01/11 02:45 PM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: gojuman59]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
The student doesn't care what belt they are, or when they test for black belt. They just want to train. That said, they are understandably uncomfortable with the questions being demoted will cause, so I think the more just course of action is to have a longer than usual period of time between double black stripe and black belt. That decision isn't mine though.

Honestly, I don't know why this has been made such a big deal. The university club is struggling for consistency and dedication from its instructors, but apparently it's more important to create drama over something so petty as a colour belt test.

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#434274 - 12/01/11 03:05 PM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: Christie]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri

I agree.The longer time between tests seems to be a better course than demotion and its negative stigma.I hope this all blows over.It's a shame when this type of silliness gets in the way of good training.

Mark

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#434631 - 02/16/12 02:05 PM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: gojuman59]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I have never heard of anyone being DEmoted. Kicked out of the dojo, yes. But demoted? Could you take back the knowledge and ability they have?
_________________________

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#434634 - 02/18/12 11:42 PM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: Ironfoot]
hope Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 149
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
I have heard of it, because of internal politics in one particular organization. I think it was meant as a statement about (lack of) respect. IN the situation of which I'm aware, the demoted people (busted from black to white belt!) simply left and set up elsewhere; the organization lost their talents.
_________________________
God grant me a good sword and no use for it. -- Polish proverb

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#434643 - 02/20/12 03:50 PM Re: "Time-served" Requirements [Re: hope]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: hope
I have heard of it, because of internal politics in one particular organization. I think it was meant as a statement about (lack of) respect. IN the situation of which I'm aware, the demoted people (busted from black to white belt!) simply left and set up elsewhere; the organization lost their talents.


In that case they should have just expelled them.They had to know that the dropping from black to white belt would cause them to leave. Really kind of lame of the organization.Even if there was a lack of respect, there are better ways of resolving the conflict.

Mark

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