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#433659 - 08/19/11 09:20 AM Sine Wave (ITF TKD)
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 905
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All

I need you guys to advise me what the Sine Wave is for.

I have popped to my local ITF Dojang, got my ITF Dobok and raring to go, even though I got to put on a White belt again.

I need to understand the SineWave, what's it for?

What's the application of the technique, with the "up/Down" effect comes into play?

Where did it originate from as I have researched some ITF schools don't teach the Sine Wave to their Forms (Poomsae)?

Is it more Western Schools putting the Sine Wave in as opposed to Korean School etc/

I'm also learning Koryo Poomsae (WTF) from a student of mine.

I am Japanese/Korean Karate based as you already know and we tend to glide without a Sine Wave on the Forms I'm used to doing.

Looking forward to your responses etc

Thanks
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#433661 - 08/19/11 09:48 AM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: Dobbersky]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri

Dobbersky-san I can only give you my take on sine-wave from my time 20 years ago. As I remember the purpose of the dropping into techniques was to gain power to the technique. It works to some degree.Example: breaking.
My problem with sine-wave is that the time used to drop into a technique makes you slow.It takes too much time. It also looks a little goofy.
I bought into the whole sin-wave thing once, but now it I realize it only has application against another person using sin-wave.
I'm trying not to art bash, but I took ITF TKD through 2nd Dan and I don't use much of it in my new skill set. Alot of it isn't really practical for Self-defense. For sparring it's pretty fun though.

Mark......A-2-USTF-1366-ITF


Edited by gojuman59 (08/19/11 03:15 PM)

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#433662 - 08/19/11 10:56 AM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Dobbersky

There was a study done at the University of Limerick a while ago where some black belts from a local ITF club done straight punches against a sensor to measure the force. They done punches with the sine wave and without the sine wave.

They found that on average the punches from the Sine Wave were only something like 0.16% harder than the punches without the Sine Wave. Although this isn't a conclusive study because it was pretty small, it still raises doubts about how effective Sine Wave was about generating power.

I think it might be a case of perceived power vs actual power. I've seen guys in martial arts who tense their muscles before they strike. It makes them feel powerful (perceived power), but in reality it isn't at all helpful for their striking ability (actual power).

I think StuartA wrote a lot about Sine Wave.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#433663 - 08/19/11 12:17 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: Dobbersky]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
To be cynical, I often felt the sine wave was just ITF's way of differentiating itself from old Chang Hon groups.

I recall when GTI (Global TKD International) split from TAGB (TKD Assoc of Great Britain) in the early 1990's. GTI decided to look at (re)joining ITF. It's worth pointing out that TAGB was formed by some of the top UKTA (ITF) practitioners in UK breaking away. many had studied and graded under Master Rhee Ki Ha and General Choi.

GTI arranged with ITF for a seminar, workshops and discussions about (re)joining ITF. The General came over to England and held a seminar where he outlined the sine-wave. This was something totally new to those of us who weren't ITF. He pointed out how "true TKD" (not "phoney WTF karate").

Considering how many of our instructors had either studied first hand with, or under high ranking students of Master Rhee, I found it strange how in 10 years they could have become such out-of-date practitioners.

Other commentators on these boards who are much more knowledgeable than me have pointed out sine-wave (or elements of it) existed for a long time in original ITF practice before it became as prominent as it is today, so perhaps I am just being a little too cynical.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#433664 - 08/19/11 04:43 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: trevek]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri


I sort of picked an elitest attitude from those teaching the Sine-wave back in the day. When I went to instructors courses that Gen. Choi taught he drove the sine-wave into the ground. Like it was the only way to do it and that others were imposters. I think that the General just wanted to have a version of the art that he could be in total control. It's interesting that there never was any mention of the shotokan tie in. Hmmnnn.....


Mark

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#433667 - 08/20/11 02:32 AM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: gojuman59]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Yeah, I remember him saying something in an interview that the Shotokan elements had been phased out (or something like that).

Funny, at the seminar in question, we were also shown a "new way" of taking up position for 3-step sparring... because the "old way" of putting your arm up to gauge the distance "was not scientific".

My use of the word "phoney", is actually quoting the General. Someone asked him what he thought of all the other kinds of TKD and he replied that there was only one kind of TKD... the others were "phoney".
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#433681 - 08/23/11 11:28 AM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: trevek]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri

I remember all the "scientific" talk. Blah..Blah.. Blah.I look back on it now and think about them saying:This must be done scientific. Add this with the Sine wave and it's no wonder that the human element of patterns and step sparring..... was absent.It seemed that the art portion of ITF TKD looked like you were to be a robot. I came to this conclusion after years away for the art.
I better stop now as I'm bashing again.Bad gojuman, go sit in the corner.


Mark

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#433955 - 10/10/11 09:48 AM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: Dobbersky]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think that many of the above sentiments have some credence. I also think that SW had/has a political element to it. It was also used to distinguish original TKD from the honorable karate roots. While I am aware of some studies that have said it may increase power slightly, it does feel more powerful to me. But again, that is only how it FEELS to me. Maybe it is related to the tensing at the appropriate moment that actually makes me feel like it is more powerful. I remain open to that. Thanks for that addition.

BUT to the most often criticism of SW by people who are either ignorant to the theory or have not been taught properly as to the theory:
SW is but 1 element of the 6 factors of the theory of power. In fact, the factor that it is only an element of, actually has other elements to it! So when you put that element into that single factor & then combine it with the other 5 factors, you get an understanding how IN THEORY you can increase power when executing basic techniques in isolation. Now what does this mumbo jumbo mean?
The best way to explain it is to use a very appropriate analogy of shooting a gun. If anyone knows how to shoot a gun, they made be aware of all the factors that must come into play if you are to hit the posted target in training with the bullet. There are certain elements or factors that one must apply scientifically to the process of shooting a gun & hoping to hit that target down range. Take away one of this minor factors & the bullet will miss the target. Ignore more of many of the factors & you will not even "hit paper" & may even get banned or thrown off the range!
But in a combat firefight, your combat training should be your fall back response. In other words, while you do not necessarily ignore principles or the factors of scientific shooting, you basically have to just point & shoot. In a firefight combat situation, you do not have the time nor should you try to shoot a live hostile opponent with gun like you would a hanging paper target on a range.

However it always seems that those who critique SW do so from a very uninformed position, with many never even having any formal training in it, under someone who really understood it's proper place in the syllabus. There are some so called ITF masters that don't even know how it was meant to be applied, IMHO!

So like Gen. Choi taught & wrote, one must have realism in their training, especially when it comes to SD fighting. Basic theories are just that & they should be applied in basics, in isolation during certain aspects of one's training. Combat training, like SD or sports competition require you to adapt principles AND train those principles differently when it comes to the afroemention categories.

One of the things or questions I have repeatedly asked, is what are the other styles of TKD teaching about power generation? Do they even have a written theory of power? Do they distinguish increasing power for power test or breaking with sports competition or real fighting?
I have never really read many substantive responses. Maybe some of the SW critics or others can share how they are taught? Or what their textbooks state?


Edited by ITFunity (10/10/11 09:57 AM)

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#433957 - 10/10/11 01:18 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: ITFunity]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
ITFUnity

I understand that there might be people who aren't incorporating the Sine Wave movement as they should in TKD and this can distort it's effectiveness.

Are you aware of any scientific studies specific to ITF TKD that show the Sine Wave, when used with other elements as you say, creates a more powerful punch? The reason I ask is that I've read about the science behind the Sine Wave in TKD but I've never come across actual studies that show that Sine Wave movement combined with other elements you mention allows a person to generate more power than they would by any other punching method.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#433990 - 10/14/11 11:06 AM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: Prizewriter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
No I am not aware of any scientific studies that have been conducted. Mr. Anslow has reported on a small study conducted maybe in Canada by the ITF-V. I am not sure how scientific it was, nor would I feel very comfortable with a study conducted by an involved party, due to bias related issues.
In that study, I think there were minor increases in some areas, no change in others & some loss of power in other areas. I also do not think there was a large sample size & other controls that scientific research requires in order to pass the snuff test.

Bottom line is that it FEELS more powerful to me. But lime I said, it is for performing basic, fundamentals in isolation. Think power test or breaking.

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