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#433996 - 10/16/11 02:25 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I don't do Pinan actively but anyway in reference to kakushite's comments:

Firstly, youtube would be the last place i'd look for good Karate videos. Of course there are good videos of Aikido, BJJ, etc., these are arts with far more cohesion in terms of organization than Karate has..generally speaking.

Repetitions in Kata often don't carry a direct meaning, you can find one, but they aren't meant to be a literal stringing of techniques much of the time IMO, so looking for meaning like "why are there three" isn't really something that has an answer.

Far as the techniques themselves many are really simple, shuto is a really obvious one - a wedge. Wanna do it in a 'sequence'? have uke keep punching and keep wedging/striking him lol, try inside and outside the arm..there's your sequence. Always adhere to KISS (harder to do IMO if you go groping around for "sequences")rule and focus on stuff that actually functions instead of what "should" be there.

Quote:
I am a kata enthusiast and I believe there are a variety of good self-defense sequences in Pinan. But it is my opinion that much of what passes for bunkai is just bunk. I would be grateful if anyone would point to youtube videos that show full directional sequences as self-defense applications.


No it's not on youtube, but you can check out Ian Abernethy's site for instance, and he also puts out videos for free periodically, as well as free articles. Wilder and Kane's Way of Kata is great on this subject, there really is a huge amount of information out there if you look in the right places. Most of what is on youtube in terms of bunkai is pretty bad, I wouldn't bother with it. Alot of the things you bring up about kata, such as seemingly not protecting the head, seemingly countering to the body, etc. have been answered by the people above..honestly if you are interested in the information send me a PM and I can give suggestions.

As far as 'full sequences' check out Taira Sensei's Goju stuff. Personally I don't see why anyone needs 'full sequences', but Taira's stuff looks fantastic and it's flow drill type material.

Here's a couple questions for you:

Do you honestly think that the kata designers thought it was a good idea to not protect the head? Do you honestly think the kata designers didn't know it's effective to punch to the head?

If the answer to either question is no, then possibly you are just looking at them wrong?

Quote:

This forum, as well as others often have posters make claims that kata are complete empty hand fighting systems, that the movements can all be used in useful ways.


What do you want someone to actually describe exactly what they do for you? Geez man, check the sources I mentioned, this stuff is out there, and it ain't that hard to find.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/16/11 02:40 AM)

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#433997 - 10/16/11 06:18 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote
Do you honestly think that the kata designers thought it was a good idea to not protect the head? Do you honestly think the kata designers didn't know it's effective to punch to the head?

Actually the kata contained mostly open techniques until Itosu modified them by closing the hand to make them "safer" to teach to school kids in the Okinawan school system.
_________________________
Duane

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#433998 - 10/16/11 11:50 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
I'm just curious don't crucify me here since I'm not a ''Traditional Karateka'' but where does the notion that Kata must contain techniques and systems purely made for combat come from?

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#433999 - 10/16/11 02:06 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
It's pretty clear if you read what there is to know about the history of Karate, that kata were intended to impart combat lessons.

Like Duane said there was some modification when Karate got mainstreamed, but generally it's accepted they were made to impart certain combat lessons, rather than as meditation, an aesthetic form etc. That stuff came later, with introduction to the school system, and to mainland Japan. One of the differences in older Karate also was that people generally knew fewer kata, and (this is my own opinion) two man practice played a more central role.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/16/11 02:10 PM)

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#434000 - 10/16/11 05:02 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
I'm just curious don't crucify me here since I'm not a ''Traditional Karateka'' but where does the notion that Kata must contain techniques and systems purely made for combat come from?


Karate used to be practiced privatley. You learned from your instructor and trained on your own-thus the need for kata. As my instructor recently reminded me there is Do and Jitsu. In the old days it was all Jitsu= fighting to stay alive. Then karate went main stream and became Do- a way of making better citizens and subjects.
Then the Americans came-trained in Do for a couple of years (if they were lucky) got a black belt (or not) and went back to the states to teach. The Okinawan sensei were amazed that Americans thought they could teach at only Shodan or Nidan level. From there the deterioration of the transmission of karate knowledge proliferated.
And now people do kata to win trophies and they have no combat applications (for some). No crucifixion intended just a short history lesson.

Duane

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#434001 - 10/16/11 07:44 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I agree with everything else you said Duanew, but this does not sound right to me:

Quote:
The Okinawan sensei were amazed that Americans thought they could teach at only Shodan or Nidan level.


Many of these "Americans" were actually encouraged to teach and ended up forming organizations, with the blessing, or at least tacit approval of the Okinawan sensei.

I'm sure some lacked knowledge (in fact it's probably undeniable that the understanding was incomplete at best), but it is definitely not true (as far as I know of course)that Okinawan sensei were "amazed" by their students teaching, and if you go by much of what is available historically many seem to have actually encouraged it.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/16/11 08:00 PM)

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#434002 - 10/17/11 03:27 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
I was quoting an interview with an Okinawan karate sensei....which I cannot find now. I believe it was Classical Fighting Arts Issue #44.

Duane

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#434004 - 10/17/11 09:04 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
I know the history quite well in most regards to Karate but you still didn't explain to me where does the idea come from that Katas must have bunkais with ''hidden'' meanings or realistic applications

All of it has always seemed like silly western mystification to me but then again I am biased none of my teachers have ever believed in any kind of bunkai even though their katas are excellent and powerful my teacher believes Kata is just a physical excercise to strengthen your body and acquire better control of your body.

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#434005 - 10/17/11 12:56 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Apparently you don't know the history of it as well as you think then, as you can read any of the pioneers of Karate, from Funakoshi, Motobu, Mabuni, etc.. and each one somewhere will mention the definite importance of Kata to Karate training, and the fact that the kata's are built with techniques that you actually are meant to use on someone. In these guys books there are pictures of the techniques from kata being used..so i'd say it's pretty clear cut that they had a comabtive purpose, rather than just being for exercise or art.

AS far as "bunkai" itself and the idea of hidden stuff, that is a new part I think, the reason it seems hidden is that it gets practiced so divorced of context now, I imagine in the old days it was all pretty common sense what the moves 'meant'. Bunkai itself is a new term in Karate, and I think (but not sure) that it was popularized my Kenwa Mabuni.

Seriously dude, pick up a book by one of the people above, or by someone more modern regarding Karate history like Patrick McCarthy..there is no real debate about what kata's original purpose was..now, whether or not it serves that purpose for most of the people now practicing, how practical it is now,that is another question entirely. The historical part really isn't up for debate though, that has been answered fora long time.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/17/11 01:15 PM)

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#434009 - 10/17/11 04:01 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
If it helps my Okinawan instructors have been teaching me bunkai for many years..which I would say takes it out of the of "western' influence.

Duane

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