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#433970 - 10/13/11 08:55 AM Self Defence techniques, Why?
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Question, how many of you have a series of Self Defence Techniques for each grade that are part of your syllabus?

Why is this?

For those who have, do you not see the techniques in the kata you practice? It has been agreed long since by many Senior Yudansha that the Pinan/Heian series of Kata holds everything you need to defend yourself IF you understand and teach the correct techniques within those kata.

That Kushanku (Kanku Dai), Bassai (Dai) and Naihanchi (Tekki) were complete fighting systems etc, why then add more to the mix.

Also the step forward Lunge punch, how many of you have been attacked in the street by this technique, I am sure it would be now more than 1%?

Do any not practice Self defence Techniques but instead USE techniques in the kata that is already instilled into the workings of your brains etc?

Below is the first kata I teach to my students, in it I have found 3 neck wrenches and 7 ground fighting scenarios from it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB52Xg58Wss
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#433972 - 10/13/11 09:56 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
The self defence techniques are the bunkai-at least the way I teach it. Neck wrenches and ground fighting bunkai from a sport fighting "kata"...sounds like wishful reverse engineering.
And to repeat your own question-"Why do you teach this kata if Pinan, Naifanchi, Kusanku, etc. have all the techniques you need?

Duane

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#433973 - 10/13/11 10:43 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri

In our Goju ryu class we have the bunkai also for the application of the moves in kata.We also have kiso kumite to use as a way to flow a series of techniqes at each belt level.
The last part of each class we work on self-defence that might not be in the kata exactly,but work on scenerios and possible counters.
I find that while the kata moves at first glance don't look applicable in SD, I had to change my mind on this as their worth becomes more and more evident. A perfect example of this is Saifa kata.At first it seemed to be a flowing artsy kata with not much "bite" to it. This was my narrow mind evaluating a kata before really learning it.Now I find techniques all the time from Saifa that would defend you well on the street.

Mark

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#433975 - 10/13/11 12:22 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Thank you for your response, I am truly grateful for your feed back

Originally Posted By: duanew
The self defence techniques are the bunkai-at least the way I teach it. Neck wrenches and ground fighting bunkai from a sport fighting "kata"...sounds like wishful reverse engineering.....


Ashihara karate is FAR from being a type of Sport Karate the same as Kyokushin and Enshin are also the same. We practice FULL contact knockdown Karate not tippy tappy bouncy bouncy 1 strike and stop stuff like "Sports Karate" The ground work is from my Assistnnt Instructors and My experience In Jujitsu and professional wrestling, so far from being wishful

Originally Posted By: duanew
....And to repeat your own question-"Why do you teach this kata if Pinan, Naifanchi, Kusanku, etc. have all the techniques you need?

Duane


This was more aimed at Traditional Karate Schools, We in Ashihara practice Jissen (Real Combat) based Kata
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#433978 - 10/13/11 05:59 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
I've never believed in any ''bunkai'' neither have any of my teachers all of the self defense training involved was with a hands on approach i.e if somebody grabs you like this what would you do instinctively. And so on.. Basically training with partners, drills and so on...

Though I wouldn't be surprised if my Karate style soon adopted ''official Bunkais'' like some other styles... blargh.

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#433986 - 10/14/11 08:49 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky

Ashihara karate is FAR from being a type of Sport Karate the same as Kyokushin and Enshin are also the same. We practice FULL contact knockdown Karate-

Do you compete in FULL contact knockdown karate tournaments?




My experience In Jujitsu and professional wrestling, so far from being wishful

My point exactly-if you have to find the techniques outside your style then the kata of your style does not include those techniques meaning you discovered the techniques by looking at a technique from the kata and made a jujitsu or wrestling application=which is reverse engineering. I'm not saying it's bad or wrong I was just saying that you wouldn't find those techniques in the style of karate that you practice-you had to go outside the style. SO then the question is is it bunkai of the kata? You can argue either way.


This was more aimed at Traditional Karate Shools, We in Ashihara practice Jissen
(Real Combat) based Kata

I would argue that the head high roundhouse kicks take it out of the "real Combat" arena and put it in the competition karate atena but that has been argued here many, many times.

Duane

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#433987 - 10/14/11 08:58 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
If you can't find self defense techniques(bunkai) in your kata then the practice of kata is meaningless. Bunkai is self defense, karate is self defense, kata is self defense. If you cannnot find it I question what you have been taught.
You teach what you know and too many "karate" instructors do not understand the kata, to teach the bunkai, to teach the real meaning of karate.One more reason why some people say "Karate doesn't work".

Duane

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#433988 - 10/14/11 09:32 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Ashihara karate is FAR from being a type of Sport Karate the same as Kyokushin and Enshin are also the same. We practice FULL contact knockdown Karate not tippy tappy bouncy bouncy 1 strike and stop stuff like "Sports Karate" The ground work is from my Assistant Instructors and My experience In Jujitsu and professional wrestling, so far from being wishful
[...]
We in Ashihara practice Jissen (Real Combat) based Kata


Sorry but I don't buy "Ashihara karate as being FAR from Sport Karate", simply because of the focus on knockdown shiai. Also most Anshihara/Enshin/Kyokushin schools (I have seen at the least) hardly every leave their rule bound kumite-format.

What I see in Ashihara kata are good tai-sabaki principles. These are however not unique to Ashihara karate, the intense focus on these principles might be however. We work 'the blindspot' in our karate system aswell. We even use different approaches for that.
Sabaki principles can also be seen in Aikido, Kendo and Kobudo etc.

Back to self defense tactics being trained for kata or not.
We train certain SD tactics that are seen in kata, Naifanchi-no-kata, Ten-i-no-kata and Wankan-no-kata come to mind.
Some of these tactics are introduced before the kata is being introduced. Other times these are introduced along with the kata.
_________________________
Ives

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#433993 - 10/14/11 11:01 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Dobbersky wrote:

Quote:
For those who have (self defense techniques), do you not see the techniques in the kata you practice? It has been agreed long since by many Senior Yudansha that the Pinan/Heian series of Kata holds everything you need to defend yourself IF you understand and teach the correct techniques within those kata.


While many senior yudansha may agree that Pinan/Heian holds everything you need to defend yourself, they certainly have kept these applications pretty secret.

I examined the Ashihara kata video posted and want to make a few points, before going on to a discussion of Pinan.

First, I like this kata from a fighting perspective. I don't find it perfect and have a critique, but it is good fighting. My issue is that the attacks lack an element of realism. Every one is a single technique. In fights, it is quite common for attackers to use combinations. Following is a list of the attacks that are defended against.

1. Single body strike
2. Single head strike
3. Single body strike
4. Single head strike (with the hand staying extended)
5. Single kick
6. Single kick
7. Single kick
8. Single kick

But I find the defensive techniques sound and useful. It is my understanding that this Ashihara kata, and others are recent inventions. In my view, this kata has a clear focus on empty hand fighting, and, as compared to most Okinawan kata of Chinese origin, is modeled on what I call "modern" empty hand fighting principles. The hands are held high, protecting the head. The body is relatively stationary. The counters are aimed at the head. There are round house kicks. These concepts vary significantly with the Chinese kata taught to Okinawans, where the hands are held low, where there are no roundhouse kicks, and where there are woefully few strikes to the head.

To summarize, this Ashihara kata contrasts significantly and in useful ways to the Pinan and other Chinese kata practiced by Okinawans, handed down 100 to several hundred years ago.

The heritage of the Pinan indicate a more recent arrival in Okinawa, as compared with many kata, at least as described in Bishop's text by Chozo Nakama. He states that a Chinese taught Channan to Itosu, who modified them, at least in part, so they could be taught over five years to Okinawan high school students. They may be quite older. They certainly contain sequences that are shared with other kata such as Kusanku and Passai which are likely quite old.

The Pinan are practiced differently by different systems, and these have been recorded and are in large part available on Youtube.

What has not been recorded and put on youtube are much meaningful bunkai. It's easy for anyone to claim tha these kata have everything you need for self-defense. It's also easy to say that there are systems that teach useful fighting for much of the Pinan sequences.

But I have found that we are expected to take this all on faith. I find the distinct lack of much useful Pinan application on Youtube as a telling sign that these claims may be overstated.

In the Ashihara kata shown, each direction is fully utilized against an attacker. What we find is that the defender does not move forward in the way we find one does in Pinan kata. In Pinan Shodan and Nidan, there are four steps to the front and back.

The challenge of applying these movements to empty hand fighting is that the attacker is in the way. A number of youtube videos show an attacker backing up in stances, striking. Is this in any way a realistic model of fighting?

Perhaps such a formalize and stiff retreat could be modified such that the attacker isn't really stepping back in locked stances, but is quickly backpedaling while striking. But even if this change were made, would anyone consider this a realistic model for how an attacker would respond to a defenders forward movements? Is it realistic to have a defended stepping forward in cat or back stance executing shutos, or in front stance using rising blocks, while stiffly moving forward in repetitive stances?

I like the Ashihara approach to kata where the hands clearly protect the head, and are held high and out in front. In Pinan kata, most movements have one hand on the hip leaving the head woefully unprotected. The first and third attacks in the Ashiraha video show a body attack, which when blocked leaves the head wide open, which the defender fully exploits.

This forum, as well as others often have posters make claims that kata are complete empty hand fighting systems, that the movements can all be used in useful ways.

Yet when asked to demonstrate these concepts, posters typically respond with statements such as:

"Look on Youtube, it's all out there."
"If you go to so-and-so's site, you can buy DVDs that explain it all."
"I can't show you our techniques, my teacher won't let me."
"The techniques practiced in my dojo are secret."

In the Ashihara kata, each direction represents a complete series of movements to be performed against an attack. I have given up hope on finding anyone who will post applications of Okinawan kata that do the same thing. For Pinan Shodan, that would include three shutos and a nukite (spear hand) in one defensive sequence. For Heian Shodan, that would include a downward block follow by three strikes or three upward blocks all done while charging forward in long front stances.

I am a kata enthusiast and I believe there are a variety of good self-defense sequences in Pinan. But it is my opinion that much of what passes for bunkai is just bunk. I would be grateful if anyone would point to youtube videos that show full directional sequences as self-defense applications.

If one looks at Aikido, Judo, and BJJ, there is just so much application out there on youtube. This is also true for all sorts of Chinese arts. PMA arts are amply demonstrated on Youtube.

But when it comes to kata application, it is all a big secret, or you can go to some site where it is available for just 29.99 for a DVD.

Why should anyone take this on faith. I have a suggestion. Those who would like others to believe that all these long kata sequences make sense in fighting would be well served by putting a few examples out there on youtube.

Cayuga Karate

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#433995 - 10/15/11 12:57 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: kakushiite]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Pinan Shodan-The reason you won't find an application of three block ups in a row is that the bunkai isn't one continous fight-it's a series of techniques. So if you do find it, it probably won't make sense. Here is one application
1. Someone grabs your left wrist and cocks their left hand to punch, YOU step in and execute what looks like a block up-only it's a forearms strike up under the chin and brachial stun-in the kata you practice with one hand then the other.-no back peddling, walking backwards in long stances-it's attacking the attacker.
Or it could be defense to a grab to the shirt,hair,hook punch-block up, step in, pull down, block up-strike to jaw, neck
The third time you are practicing the technique followed by a take down-that's what the turns are for-tuite applications.
Each of the kata, Pinan, Naifanchi, Chinto, Gojushiho, Kusanku also teaches specific footwork that is included in the techniques that involve "body shifting" "tai sabaki" whatever you want to call it.
I study a traditional Okinawan style so the applications may be different than yours.

Duane

PS-no charge, no dvd to buy, and there are no secrets only things you don't know yet.

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