FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 32 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mohdnabeel, sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT
22915 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
AndyLA 3
futsaowingchun 3
Matakiant 3
kolslaw 1
Bartfast 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Martial News
by Matakiant
09/23/14 06:42 AM
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Eugue Ryu
by
03/27/07 12:06 AM
Recent Posts
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 12:10 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Victor Smith
09/28/14 07:11 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
Wing Chun-internal training
by futsaowingchun
09/23/14 09:01 PM
Martial News
by Matakiant
09/23/14 06:42 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/19/14 09:05 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
09/18/14 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
Forum Stats
22915 Members
36 Forums
35579 Topics
432500 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#433970 - 10/13/11 08:55 AM Self Defence techniques, Why?
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Question, how many of you have a series of Self Defence Techniques for each grade that are part of your syllabus?

Why is this?

For those who have, do you not see the techniques in the kata you practice? It has been agreed long since by many Senior Yudansha that the Pinan/Heian series of Kata holds everything you need to defend yourself IF you understand and teach the correct techniques within those kata.

That Kushanku (Kanku Dai), Bassai (Dai) and Naihanchi (Tekki) were complete fighting systems etc, why then add more to the mix.

Also the step forward Lunge punch, how many of you have been attacked in the street by this technique, I am sure it would be now more than 1%?

Do any not practice Self defence Techniques but instead USE techniques in the kata that is already instilled into the workings of your brains etc?

Below is the first kata I teach to my students, in it I have found 3 neck wrenches and 7 ground fighting scenarios from it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB52Xg58Wss
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#433972 - 10/13/11 09:56 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
The self defence techniques are the bunkai-at least the way I teach it. Neck wrenches and ground fighting bunkai from a sport fighting "kata"...sounds like wishful reverse engineering.
And to repeat your own question-"Why do you teach this kata if Pinan, Naifanchi, Kusanku, etc. have all the techniques you need?

Duane

Top
#433973 - 10/13/11 10:43 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
gojuman59 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri

In our Goju ryu class we have the bunkai also for the application of the moves in kata.We also have kiso kumite to use as a way to flow a series of techniqes at each belt level.
The last part of each class we work on self-defence that might not be in the kata exactly,but work on scenerios and possible counters.
I find that while the kata moves at first glance don't look applicable in SD, I had to change my mind on this as their worth becomes more and more evident. A perfect example of this is Saifa kata.At first it seemed to be a flowing artsy kata with not much "bite" to it. This was my narrow mind evaluating a kata before really learning it.Now I find techniques all the time from Saifa that would defend you well on the street.

Mark

Top
#433975 - 10/13/11 12:22 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Thank you for your response, I am truly grateful for your feed back

Originally Posted By: duanew
The self defence techniques are the bunkai-at least the way I teach it. Neck wrenches and ground fighting bunkai from a sport fighting "kata"...sounds like wishful reverse engineering.....


Ashihara karate is FAR from being a type of Sport Karate the same as Kyokushin and Enshin are also the same. We practice FULL contact knockdown Karate not tippy tappy bouncy bouncy 1 strike and stop stuff like "Sports Karate" The ground work is from my Assistnnt Instructors and My experience In Jujitsu and professional wrestling, so far from being wishful

Originally Posted By: duanew
....And to repeat your own question-"Why do you teach this kata if Pinan, Naifanchi, Kusanku, etc. have all the techniques you need?

Duane


This was more aimed at Traditional Karate Schools, We in Ashihara practice Jissen (Real Combat) based Kata
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#433978 - 10/13/11 05:59 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I've never believed in any ''bunkai'' neither have any of my teachers all of the self defense training involved was with a hands on approach i.e if somebody grabs you like this what would you do instinctively. And so on.. Basically training with partners, drills and so on...

Though I wouldn't be surprised if my Karate style soon adopted ''official Bunkais'' like some other styles... blargh.

Top
#433986 - 10/14/11 08:49 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky

Ashihara karate is FAR from being a type of Sport Karate the same as Kyokushin and Enshin are also the same. We practice FULL contact knockdown Karate-

Do you compete in FULL contact knockdown karate tournaments?




My experience In Jujitsu and professional wrestling, so far from being wishful

My point exactly-if you have to find the techniques outside your style then the kata of your style does not include those techniques meaning you discovered the techniques by looking at a technique from the kata and made a jujitsu or wrestling application=which is reverse engineering. I'm not saying it's bad or wrong I was just saying that you wouldn't find those techniques in the style of karate that you practice-you had to go outside the style. SO then the question is is it bunkai of the kata? You can argue either way.


This was more aimed at Traditional Karate Shools, We in Ashihara practice Jissen
(Real Combat) based Kata

I would argue that the head high roundhouse kicks take it out of the "real Combat" arena and put it in the competition karate atena but that has been argued here many, many times.

Duane

Top
#433987 - 10/14/11 08:58 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
If you can't find self defense techniques(bunkai) in your kata then the practice of kata is meaningless. Bunkai is self defense, karate is self defense, kata is self defense. If you cannnot find it I question what you have been taught.
You teach what you know and too many "karate" instructors do not understand the kata, to teach the bunkai, to teach the real meaning of karate.One more reason why some people say "Karate doesn't work".

Duane

Top
#433988 - 10/14/11 09:32 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Dobbersky
Ashihara karate is FAR from being a type of Sport Karate the same as Kyokushin and Enshin are also the same. We practice FULL contact knockdown Karate not tippy tappy bouncy bouncy 1 strike and stop stuff like "Sports Karate" The ground work is from my Assistant Instructors and My experience In Jujitsu and professional wrestling, so far from being wishful
[...]
We in Ashihara practice Jissen (Real Combat) based Kata


Sorry but I don't buy "Ashihara karate as being FAR from Sport Karate", simply because of the focus on knockdown shiai. Also most Anshihara/Enshin/Kyokushin schools (I have seen at the least) hardly every leave their rule bound kumite-format.

What I see in Ashihara kata are good tai-sabaki principles. These are however not unique to Ashihara karate, the intense focus on these principles might be however. We work 'the blindspot' in our karate system aswell. We even use different approaches for that.
Sabaki principles can also be seen in Aikido, Kendo and Kobudo etc.

Back to self defense tactics being trained for kata or not.
We train certain SD tactics that are seen in kata, Naifanchi-no-kata, Ten-i-no-kata and Wankan-no-kata come to mind.
Some of these tactics are introduced before the kata is being introduced. Other times these are introduced along with the kata.
_________________________
Ives

Top
#433993 - 10/14/11 11:01 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Dobbersky wrote:

Quote:
For those who have (self defense techniques), do you not see the techniques in the kata you practice? It has been agreed long since by many Senior Yudansha that the Pinan/Heian series of Kata holds everything you need to defend yourself IF you understand and teach the correct techniques within those kata.


While many senior yudansha may agree that Pinan/Heian holds everything you need to defend yourself, they certainly have kept these applications pretty secret.

I examined the Ashihara kata video posted and want to make a few points, before going on to a discussion of Pinan.

First, I like this kata from a fighting perspective. I don't find it perfect and have a critique, but it is good fighting. My issue is that the attacks lack an element of realism. Every one is a single technique. In fights, it is quite common for attackers to use combinations. Following is a list of the attacks that are defended against.

1. Single body strike
2. Single head strike
3. Single body strike
4. Single head strike (with the hand staying extended)
5. Single kick
6. Single kick
7. Single kick
8. Single kick

But I find the defensive techniques sound and useful. It is my understanding that this Ashihara kata, and others are recent inventions. In my view, this kata has a clear focus on empty hand fighting, and, as compared to most Okinawan kata of Chinese origin, is modeled on what I call "modern" empty hand fighting principles. The hands are held high, protecting the head. The body is relatively stationary. The counters are aimed at the head. There are round house kicks. These concepts vary significantly with the Chinese kata taught to Okinawans, where the hands are held low, where there are no roundhouse kicks, and where there are woefully few strikes to the head.

To summarize, this Ashihara kata contrasts significantly and in useful ways to the Pinan and other Chinese kata practiced by Okinawans, handed down 100 to several hundred years ago.

The heritage of the Pinan indicate a more recent arrival in Okinawa, as compared with many kata, at least as described in Bishop's text by Chozo Nakama. He states that a Chinese taught Channan to Itosu, who modified them, at least in part, so they could be taught over five years to Okinawan high school students. They may be quite older. They certainly contain sequences that are shared with other kata such as Kusanku and Passai which are likely quite old.

The Pinan are practiced differently by different systems, and these have been recorded and are in large part available on Youtube.

What has not been recorded and put on youtube are much meaningful bunkai. It's easy for anyone to claim tha these kata have everything you need for self-defense. It's also easy to say that there are systems that teach useful fighting for much of the Pinan sequences.

But I have found that we are expected to take this all on faith. I find the distinct lack of much useful Pinan application on Youtube as a telling sign that these claims may be overstated.

In the Ashihara kata shown, each direction is fully utilized against an attacker. What we find is that the defender does not move forward in the way we find one does in Pinan kata. In Pinan Shodan and Nidan, there are four steps to the front and back.

The challenge of applying these movements to empty hand fighting is that the attacker is in the way. A number of youtube videos show an attacker backing up in stances, striking. Is this in any way a realistic model of fighting?

Perhaps such a formalize and stiff retreat could be modified such that the attacker isn't really stepping back in locked stances, but is quickly backpedaling while striking. But even if this change were made, would anyone consider this a realistic model for how an attacker would respond to a defenders forward movements? Is it realistic to have a defended stepping forward in cat or back stance executing shutos, or in front stance using rising blocks, while stiffly moving forward in repetitive stances?

I like the Ashihara approach to kata where the hands clearly protect the head, and are held high and out in front. In Pinan kata, most movements have one hand on the hip leaving the head woefully unprotected. The first and third attacks in the Ashiraha video show a body attack, which when blocked leaves the head wide open, which the defender fully exploits.

This forum, as well as others often have posters make claims that kata are complete empty hand fighting systems, that the movements can all be used in useful ways.

Yet when asked to demonstrate these concepts, posters typically respond with statements such as:

"Look on Youtube, it's all out there."
"If you go to so-and-so's site, you can buy DVDs that explain it all."
"I can't show you our techniques, my teacher won't let me."
"The techniques practiced in my dojo are secret."

In the Ashihara kata, each direction represents a complete series of movements to be performed against an attack. I have given up hope on finding anyone who will post applications of Okinawan kata that do the same thing. For Pinan Shodan, that would include three shutos and a nukite (spear hand) in one defensive sequence. For Heian Shodan, that would include a downward block follow by three strikes or three upward blocks all done while charging forward in long front stances.

I am a kata enthusiast and I believe there are a variety of good self-defense sequences in Pinan. But it is my opinion that much of what passes for bunkai is just bunk. I would be grateful if anyone would point to youtube videos that show full directional sequences as self-defense applications.

If one looks at Aikido, Judo, and BJJ, there is just so much application out there on youtube. This is also true for all sorts of Chinese arts. PMA arts are amply demonstrated on Youtube.

But when it comes to kata application, it is all a big secret, or you can go to some site where it is available for just 29.99 for a DVD.

Why should anyone take this on faith. I have a suggestion. Those who would like others to believe that all these long kata sequences make sense in fighting would be well served by putting a few examples out there on youtube.

Cayuga Karate

Top
#433995 - 10/15/11 12:57 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: kakushiite]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Pinan Shodan-The reason you won't find an application of three block ups in a row is that the bunkai isn't one continous fight-it's a series of techniques. So if you do find it, it probably won't make sense. Here is one application
1. Someone grabs your left wrist and cocks their left hand to punch, YOU step in and execute what looks like a block up-only it's a forearms strike up under the chin and brachial stun-in the kata you practice with one hand then the other.-no back peddling, walking backwards in long stances-it's attacking the attacker.
Or it could be defense to a grab to the shirt,hair,hook punch-block up, step in, pull down, block up-strike to jaw, neck
The third time you are practicing the technique followed by a take down-that's what the turns are for-tuite applications.
Each of the kata, Pinan, Naifanchi, Chinto, Gojushiho, Kusanku also teaches specific footwork that is included in the techniques that involve "body shifting" "tai sabaki" whatever you want to call it.
I study a traditional Okinawan style so the applications may be different than yours.

Duane

PS-no charge, no dvd to buy, and there are no secrets only things you don't know yet.

Top
#433996 - 10/16/11 02:25 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I don't do Pinan actively but anyway in reference to kakushite's comments:

Firstly, youtube would be the last place i'd look for good Karate videos. Of course there are good videos of Aikido, BJJ, etc., these are arts with far more cohesion in terms of organization than Karate has..generally speaking.

Repetitions in Kata often don't carry a direct meaning, you can find one, but they aren't meant to be a literal stringing of techniques much of the time IMO, so looking for meaning like "why are there three" isn't really something that has an answer.

Far as the techniques themselves many are really simple, shuto is a really obvious one - a wedge. Wanna do it in a 'sequence'? have uke keep punching and keep wedging/striking him lol, try inside and outside the arm..there's your sequence. Always adhere to KISS (harder to do IMO if you go groping around for "sequences")rule and focus on stuff that actually functions instead of what "should" be there.

Quote:
I am a kata enthusiast and I believe there are a variety of good self-defense sequences in Pinan. But it is my opinion that much of what passes for bunkai is just bunk. I would be grateful if anyone would point to youtube videos that show full directional sequences as self-defense applications.


No it's not on youtube, but you can check out Ian Abernethy's site for instance, and he also puts out videos for free periodically, as well as free articles. Wilder and Kane's Way of Kata is great on this subject, there really is a huge amount of information out there if you look in the right places. Most of what is on youtube in terms of bunkai is pretty bad, I wouldn't bother with it. Alot of the things you bring up about kata, such as seemingly not protecting the head, seemingly countering to the body, etc. have been answered by the people above..honestly if you are interested in the information send me a PM and I can give suggestions.

As far as 'full sequences' check out Taira Sensei's Goju stuff. Personally I don't see why anyone needs 'full sequences', but Taira's stuff looks fantastic and it's flow drill type material.

Here's a couple questions for you:

Do you honestly think that the kata designers thought it was a good idea to not protect the head? Do you honestly think the kata designers didn't know it's effective to punch to the head?

If the answer to either question is no, then possibly you are just looking at them wrong?

Quote:

This forum, as well as others often have posters make claims that kata are complete empty hand fighting systems, that the movements can all be used in useful ways.


What do you want someone to actually describe exactly what they do for you? Geez man, check the sources I mentioned, this stuff is out there, and it ain't that hard to find.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/16/11 02:40 AM)

Top
#433997 - 10/16/11 06:18 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote
Do you honestly think that the kata designers thought it was a good idea to not protect the head? Do you honestly think the kata designers didn't know it's effective to punch to the head?

Actually the kata contained mostly open techniques until Itosu modified them by closing the hand to make them "safer" to teach to school kids in the Okinawan school system.
_________________________
Duane

Top
#433998 - 10/16/11 11:50 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I'm just curious don't crucify me here since I'm not a ''Traditional Karateka'' but where does the notion that Kata must contain techniques and systems purely made for combat come from?

Top
#433999 - 10/16/11 02:06 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
It's pretty clear if you read what there is to know about the history of Karate, that kata were intended to impart combat lessons.

Like Duane said there was some modification when Karate got mainstreamed, but generally it's accepted they were made to impart certain combat lessons, rather than as meditation, an aesthetic form etc. That stuff came later, with introduction to the school system, and to mainland Japan. One of the differences in older Karate also was that people generally knew fewer kata, and (this is my own opinion) two man practice played a more central role.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/16/11 02:10 PM)

Top
#434000 - 10/16/11 05:02 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Matakiant
I'm just curious don't crucify me here since I'm not a ''Traditional Karateka'' but where does the notion that Kata must contain techniques and systems purely made for combat come from?


Karate used to be practiced privatley. You learned from your instructor and trained on your own-thus the need for kata. As my instructor recently reminded me there is Do and Jitsu. In the old days it was all Jitsu= fighting to stay alive. Then karate went main stream and became Do- a way of making better citizens and subjects.
Then the Americans came-trained in Do for a couple of years (if they were lucky) got a black belt (or not) and went back to the states to teach. The Okinawan sensei were amazed that Americans thought they could teach at only Shodan or Nidan level. From there the deterioration of the transmission of karate knowledge proliferated.
And now people do kata to win trophies and they have no combat applications (for some). No crucifixion intended just a short history lesson.

Duane

Top
#434001 - 10/16/11 07:44 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I agree with everything else you said Duanew, but this does not sound right to me:

Quote:
The Okinawan sensei were amazed that Americans thought they could teach at only Shodan or Nidan level.


Many of these "Americans" were actually encouraged to teach and ended up forming organizations, with the blessing, or at least tacit approval of the Okinawan sensei.

I'm sure some lacked knowledge (in fact it's probably undeniable that the understanding was incomplete at best), but it is definitely not true (as far as I know of course)that Okinawan sensei were "amazed" by their students teaching, and if you go by much of what is available historically many seem to have actually encouraged it.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/16/11 08:00 PM)

Top
#434002 - 10/17/11 03:27 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
I was quoting an interview with an Okinawan karate sensei....which I cannot find now. I believe it was Classical Fighting Arts Issue #44.

Duane

Top
#434004 - 10/17/11 09:04 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I know the history quite well in most regards to Karate but you still didn't explain to me where does the idea come from that Katas must have bunkais with ''hidden'' meanings or realistic applications

All of it has always seemed like silly western mystification to me but then again I am biased none of my teachers have ever believed in any kind of bunkai even though their katas are excellent and powerful my teacher believes Kata is just a physical excercise to strengthen your body and acquire better control of your body.

Top
#434005 - 10/17/11 12:56 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Apparently you don't know the history of it as well as you think then, as you can read any of the pioneers of Karate, from Funakoshi, Motobu, Mabuni, etc.. and each one somewhere will mention the definite importance of Kata to Karate training, and the fact that the kata's are built with techniques that you actually are meant to use on someone. In these guys books there are pictures of the techniques from kata being used..so i'd say it's pretty clear cut that they had a comabtive purpose, rather than just being for exercise or art.

AS far as "bunkai" itself and the idea of hidden stuff, that is a new part I think, the reason it seems hidden is that it gets practiced so divorced of context now, I imagine in the old days it was all pretty common sense what the moves 'meant'. Bunkai itself is a new term in Karate, and I think (but not sure) that it was popularized my Kenwa Mabuni.

Seriously dude, pick up a book by one of the people above, or by someone more modern regarding Karate history like Patrick McCarthy..there is no real debate about what kata's original purpose was..now, whether or not it serves that purpose for most of the people now practicing, how practical it is now,that is another question entirely. The historical part really isn't up for debate though, that has been answered fora long time.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/17/11 01:15 PM)

Top
#434009 - 10/17/11 04:01 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
If it helps my Okinawan instructors have been teaching me bunkai for many years..which I would say takes it out of the of "western' influence.

Duane

Top
#434014 - 10/17/11 09:30 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I'm sorry if I upset you so much I am not the best at expressing myself in English but I wasn't questioning history I was asking a question tyvm no need to spazz.

Ohh and if you do look at history some very famous teachers do name some Katas to be for conditioning and strengthening the body...

Anyway my practice on Kata etc wont change until I meet someone who dilligently practices bunkai and can show me a performance of Kata, technique and full contact sparring that exceeds mine and of those who I practice with...

Top
#434015 - 10/18/11 12:08 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:
I'm sorry if I upset you so much I am not the best at expressing myself in English but I wasn't questioning history I was asking a question tyvm no need to spazz.



Not upset, just calling into question your claim that there is no history for "bunkai"..it's definitely there, even though the term is new.

Yeah, some famous people said kata helps condition etc..the thing is they did not say that is all it did, and certainly conditioning and strengthening are not mutually exclusive to application, in fact they should work hand in hand.

Plenty of Modern Japanese Budo type Karate mostly does kata this way, that's great and all, but it isn't all there is...an it is modern Japanese Budo, a different take than the Okinawan stuff.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/18/11 12:13 AM)

Top
#434017 - 10/18/11 11:47 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
I see what I believe at least in Martial Arts. Since Martial Arts aren't as numerous here as in the Americas or the bigger European countries my experiences with other styles are few, definately fewer than any Americans. But I've seen some Shotokan practitioners and asked them to show me a Bunkai..

The problems I have with them is that they are mostly ridiculous I consider it a matter of interpertation and if someone who really lacks any kind of combat experience or even training in full contact starts showing me techniques which make absolutely no sense and containt poor body mechanics well it just doesn't impress.

I'm not saying that the techniques in Kata are not useable - that would be a ridiculous thing to think in itself - I'm just saying I do not believe Katas to be some strings of techniques I see some techniques in Katas going hand to hand but I also see that many Katas we practice in Karate are actually weapon Katas so searching Katas for long stringed techniques meant to be used in situation A, B or C just doesn't seem like a very practical thing to do.

If your basic technique is strong then all you need is the experience to put those techniques together if you have a good flow and a good technique you can make your own ''bunkai'' with or without Katas. That's at least what I think.. There are many pitfalls in Martial Arts but there are also many hacks trying to teach things they don't know so maybe my experiences have been 1 sided and maybe somewhere up ahead I have something to learn from somebody with a completely different perspective.

Top
#434022 - 10/18/11 01:07 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I can't argue with anything you've said.

The people who teach good kata application and drilling don't teach an unending string of "a" "b" "c", it's more universal than that. Again take shuto as an example, just have someoone fire off punches at you and use shuto, it's a wedge, a strike, it works inside and outside, it doesn't require a specific attack or circumstance to be effective.

AS far as kata application, if you take the people who are bad at it and make that the standard, then ya..that's what you'll get. As I said though there are people out there who have put out really good material, Kane and Wilder, Iain Abernethy, and Vince Morris/other Kissaki Kai guys are the people I would look at, none of these people are hacks in any way.

As far as not 'needing it'..well yeah you can get by with just kihon and karate sparring, but personally I don't want to do kata unless it's linked to some kind of functional two man practice and combative use. Id on't see a point in doing the katas without understanding what they are for.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (10/18/11 01:08 PM)

Top
#434025 - 10/18/11 07:35 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Matakiant wrote:

Quote:
I see some techniques in Katas going hand to hand but I also see that many Katas we practice in Karate are actually weapon Katas


Would you care to give some more detail regarding the latter part of that statement. I find it very intriguing.

Thank you.

Kakushiite
Cayuga Karate

Top
#434028 - 10/19/11 10:01 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: kakushiite]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Since I have had some kobudo practice, I'm very intrigued too.
_________________________
Ives

Top
#434085 - 10/29/11 09:22 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ken:

In a word, nope.

There are many perfectly fine techniques, they are not attached to any specific rankings. If it is not simple, easy and based on structure, positioning, mechanics... it is not kara-te.

Our art is kata-centric. All kinds of things are buried in plain sight. Escapes from chokes, grabs, locks... are all there.

We use the older Shorin forms prior to the creation of the Pinans, the "dai" or "sho" additions.

Jeff

Top
#434091 - 10/31/11 09:39 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Ronin1966]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All

Thank you so much for such an excellent read of varying degree of knowledge and opinions (I was off for a few weeks so unable to respond)

The Kata I provided was the FIRST Kata that is in our Syllabus - the equivalent of Taikyoku Shodan or Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan). In Ashihara Karate we have
Shoshin kata (Beginner's kata) - This gives the student the basis to which all other Kata in the Syllabus are derived from,
Kihon kata (Basic kata) - This gives the Student a better understanding of the techniques and the use of Sabaki becomes part of the students Arsenal,
Kumite kata (Sparring kata) - This gives the student the means to put combinations together whether in the Ring on the mat or possibly outside the Dojo,
Nage kata (Throwing Kata) - this gives the Student the means to be able to throw the attacker to the ground on various attacks. It tends to use the principle of Irimi and Tenkan (Aikido) to provide a vehicle for performing the techniques
and Jissen kata (Real Combat kata) - This tends to be a bit more in close, the kata is designed for use in close distance when the attacker has gotten "in" to your guard, the use of knees and elbows is used as well as arm locking and grabbing.

Ok Back to the topic:

I agree with a lot of you that some techniques seem a little floored when shown in principle but if you tend to think about it its common sense!?!

A kick to the head - is this a extremely high kick if done o the street is quite bad for you if it is countered or is a kick to the head whilst you bring the head of the attacker to waist height or even knee height or is it the positioning 'on the ground' of an straight arm bar?

Remember a closed fist is not just a punch it is also a grab. A step forward can also be a step back. Consider the hand positions of traditional Karate punching, Oi Tsuki Dachi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yIg6pq0CPM

Now look at the standard Judo stance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSSLASOwu8

Virtually Identical!!!!

Now the push pull is creating kazushi NOT punching some one etc

Sometimes we have to look outside to see whatís already within

Every move in kata may have a dozen applications and it doesn't mean that some are wrong or some are right. Itís just a concept.

If everyone knows the movie Casino Royal where James Bond uses Naihanchi (Tekki) kata to fight the guy on the top of the crane, it shows that kata no matter if it is Modern (Ashihara) or Classical (Isshin Ryu) IS effective its just how it is perceived by the KarateKa.
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
#434332 - 12/23/11 02:58 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: duanew]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
One of the problems involved in the interpretation of bunkai among "Traditionalists" is that all the SD responses are launched against karate techniques. This was even demonstrated in the video. I'm a fan of the Ashihara/Enshin method, but who uses kata techniques against hay-makers, tackles & headlocks like we find in "street incidents"? Well, I do.

I've never been involved in an incident where the attacker threw a front-kick or punched & left their strait arm suspended in space so I could grab it & throw-down w/ some fancy-schmancy movie Kung-fu.

If you look closely, you'll see how kata can teach reality responses - I like to use the Pinan kata & Annanko to demonstrate my point.

Owari


Edited by hedkikr (12/23/11 02:59 AM)
_________________________
Ed Ichihara Smith - Shukokai

Top
#434350 - 12/29/11 12:51 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: hedkikr]
Matakiant Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 120
Originally Posted By: hedkikr


If you look closely, you'll see how kata can teach reality responses - I like to use the Pinan kata & Annanko to demonstrate my point.

Owari


And that's the great problem - I don't see any of that in any of the major Karate schools that greatly integrate Bunkai into their practice and grading requirements.

As for my previous comment about most Katas that we use today being originated from weapon Katas for just one example look at some of the movements in Ananku

Top
#434581 - 02/01/12 02:40 PM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Matakiant]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Personally I think it henders the teaching of self defense techniques if taught in kata. Rather then teach self defense for a two hand frontal choke which we start to cover at 9th kyu throughout their training but not covered in kata until 3rd or 2nd Kyu and again at Nidan. Training against this tactic at 9th kyu by 4th kyu or at least 2nd kyu they have trained many effecttive counterattacks for this attack.

I think Kata are designed to store fighting principles and techniques not really apply them. Kata stores the techniques in its near perfect state. Application prepares the student for changes in the non perfect world of what ifs. By the time these techniques show up in our forms the student knows numerous ways to counter 100s of self defense scenarios. There priciples are strengthen by his/her understanding of Kata and how it applies to these situations.


Edited by Neko456 (02/01/12 02:44 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#435918 - 07/09/13 06:34 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Martin_Taylor Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/04/13
Posts: 3
As we all know that Self Defense is very important technique in Martial Arts / Karate. It is very useful to protect you and your family. That is why every good institute / school are giving training of this technique very much. As, I am associated with 'California Karate Academy' who has been offering effective self-defense programs courses to men, women, teenagers, and children for over 50 years.

For more info please visit: [link removed byh administrator]


Edited by Zombie Zero (07/09/13 09:40 AM)

Top
#435921 - 07/10/13 09:50 AM Re: Self Defence techniques, Why? [Re: Dobbersky]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I saw on YouTube an attempt of a series of Self Defence Techniques as part of a "training programme" as detailed above but thought to myself I'd have a better chance fighting out of a paper bag.

They tend to have unrealistic hand/wrist grips or and defences where they are so "Dojoesque" you know they wouldn't work if the "attacker" put the smallest amount of resistance into the defence.

I won't add it here as we've all seen them and could probably relate to similar "videos"

One thing I can say is that Bruce Tegner, although a little outdated does have some seriously good defences describes in his books.
Also I've got a few books on Self Defence that I would rate awesome, as well as other books that I consider it as Karate/Jujitsu/Judo in jeans.

What we need to realise is Dojo stuff only works 1-5% of the time the rest doesn't.

Good topic and some excellent responses so far
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga