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#433991 - 10/14/11 11:12 AM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: gojuman59]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
To any critic of sine wave:

Have you ever seen an ITF fighting in any tournament bobbing up & down doing sine wave?

I ask this, as it is an often reported critique of sine wave, ie it is not realistic. So has anyone ever been to a tournament or seen a video of any ITFer moving these way in any fight?

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#433992 - 10/14/11 03:08 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: ITFunity]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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I have sparred several TKD folks that did that. I actually just thought it was poor form, LOL. I was shocked to find out that they had been taught to do that. Sine wave is very easy to time, IMHO - at least in sparring.
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#434023 - 10/18/11 01:22 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: MattJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS!

Sorry! It is not that I can't believe what you wrote is true, BUT I simply can't believe that someone was taught this & actually tried to apply it that way!
(Also not sorry for shouting, because I was! LOL!). wink

Now I have to ask some follow up questions:
What ranks were they?
Did or do they train at a registered up to date ITF Dojang?
Do they have ITF BB Certs (if BBs)?
Do they actually compete in ITF Tournaments with continuous rules?
If so, how do they fare?
And if they compete in real ITF Tournaments, do they see others competing in fighting doing that as well?


Edited by ITFunity (10/18/11 01:24 PM)

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#434030 - 10/19/11 11:48 AM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: ITFunity]
MattJ Offline
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They were black belt level, but I don't remember specifically what rank they were. This was 10+ years ago, so I can't answer any of the other questions, sorry. But I have seen other TKD people at tournaments doing the same thing since then.
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#434034 - 10/20/11 02:02 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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I have no doubt what Matt has said; I'm sure there are some that do spar and use the sine wave technique but I would be it is very few and may be school specific.

From watching videos and seeing some in person, sparring looks like sparring regardless if TKD ITF, TKD WTF, Karate, etc. There is kicking, punching, foot work, etc. If SW is that much powerful why is it not carried more over to the sparring?

[Don't read too much into this as bashing; I have seen some spectacular ITF fighters and envy their abilities. However when they fight it looks just like that; fighting, which cannot be distinguished from other fighting forms. Has their own personality and flair.]

I had an opportunity in my years of training to be invited to train with an ITF school which I did for 3 or 4 classes. I found it difficult to do the SW in the patterns however I followed along as best as possible. When it came to drills of punching and kicking, SW was not present and it was no different than the drills I did in my own school. Again if SW is that much powerful why is it not carried over to the drills?

SW definitely makes ITF stand out; it is their own. That Choi said other schools were "phoney", I think that just lowered him to the same level as other practitioners who think their system is the end all be all. I would rather train under a person, especially a system, where the teacher encouraged its students to learn other arts to see the difference for themselves and add those skills to their own to make them better. That is a true martial artists; open minded. When you close your mind than you stop learning; that is what Choi did in my opinion.
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#434035 - 10/20/11 02:14 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: Prizewriter]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
There was a study done at the University of Limerick a while ago where some black belts from a local ITF club done straight punches against a sensor to measure the force. They done punches with the sine wave and without the sine wave.

They found that on average the punches from the Sine Wave were only something like 0.16% harder than the punches without the Sine Wave. Although this isn't a conclusive study because it was pretty small, it still raises doubts about how effective Sine Wave was about generating power.


I think the studies were bias; an ITF school trying to prove that SW is better. Did anybody in the study actually hit harder without SW? And that after all the punches were done they just averaged it? I would be more readily to believe such a thing if the participants were all of equal height and weight. All had equal years of practice in their arts and included ITF, WTF, Karate, Boxers, etc. In fact the boxer probably could hit harder which than I guess would prove that all other punching arts are less; correct?
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#434037 - 10/20/11 03:38 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: Dereck]
MattJ Offline
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I could believe that sine-wave does increase punching power a bit; it is similar in concept to the kenpo principle "marriage of gravity", which uses downward motion to add weight to some strikes. The problem I saw was the giant "tell" caused by the up/down movement, which most experienced fighters would be able to see and avoid long before the strike landed.

0.16% is not enough of a power addition to warrant taking the risk, IMHO. I'm sure that it isn't meant to be applied like the way I saw it, and saw many things mis-applied in kenpo, too. I have also worked with some truly awesome TKD folk in sparring, too.
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#434041 - 10/21/11 01:39 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: MattJ]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Guess I'll way in a little. First, I have to agree with Dereck regarding that at the ITF schools I have visited the SW is only present in the patterns and 1,2 & 3 step sparring. The latter made more sense as it is designed for SD practice where I can see it getting used in a real life situation but not as exaggerated (rather than bounce, finishing a technique at the same time your foot is stepping in and delivering the blow). Sparring Drills have been almost identical in most MA schools.

Dereck, I think that you maybe a little out of context on what the General said regarding "Phonies" (and I'm sure ITFUnity and/or Master Weiss can confirm this). I believe that he was referring more so to schools that declared themselves TKD (WTF,GTF) and the like due to the animosity between the orgs. As I understand it, he encouraged training other arts outside of TKD. Again, that was something that I had been told by someone whom I respect and have no reason to doubt. But again, I know the 2 gentleman I mention above have some rather personal experience with the General.

Finally, I also believe that ITFUnity made mention in an earlier post that he thought that the "Test" that was done was probably biased as well. So I think everyone is on the same page here with that.

VDJ


Edited by VDJ (10/21/11 01:41 PM)

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#434152 - 11/10/11 03:18 PM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: VDJ]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Yep, I bet those ITF guys using pattern type sine wave in sparring were the same ones using traditional stances and pulling the opposite hand to the hip when sparring as well:)


Edited by EarlWeiss (11/10/11 03:19 PM)

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#434156 - 11/12/11 08:19 AM Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) [Re: VDJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: VDJ
I think that you maybe a little out of context on what the General said regarding "Phonies" (and I'm sure ITFUnity and/or Master Weiss can confirm this). I believe that he was referring more so to schools that declared themselves TKD (WTF,GTF) and the like due to the animosity between the orgs.

VDJ


When I heard him say that, it was WTF he was reffering to.
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